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I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

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Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#401

Post by beyondzero » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

bariswheel wrote: post #213

CephalopodMD wrote: post #119

I just want my own office. That's all. I'd be pretty okay with going in if I had my own office with 4 walls. First job of my career, they told me I would have an office of my own. First day I come back do for full time (I had interned there too with my own office), they tell me they're switching buildings to go open office in about a month's time. I got a precious few weeks with a personal office, and then it was all…

An open office is cheaper to manage for the company. It's all about the bottom line. That's most likely the biggest reason it exists.

Construction materials supplier here. That is not necessarily true. There are two major drivers for open office plans:

1) The notion in architecture that open plans, by literally removing barriers, figuratively remove them and create a more open and inclusive office environment. This is a popular belief in the biggest architectural firms in the world, even though the principals at those firms all have luxurious private offices.

2) Recently some offices have flipped to open plans to accommodate hybrid working. E.g. allowing employees to WFH 2-3 days / week but then expecting them to hot-desk when they come in. This reduces the total footprint required, which can reduce costs...except many firms are using the saved funds to enhance the office in other ways (more natural light, better furniture, plants and fountains, catering, etc.) in order to attract talent.

Gensler has published a lot of this research and positioning publicly in reports and in their podcasts.

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#402

Post by McWobbleston » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

MrScruff wrote: post #182

colechristensen wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And that's a perfectly reasonable approach to hiring for a new company. And likely discriminatory. I prefer working from home because I (am caring for an ailing parent|just had a baby|am not neurotypical|have a disability|etc.) WFH is going to start being seen as a "reasonable accommodation" because the last 18 months have proven that lots of jobs can be done just fine without a physical office and denying that to e…

For arranged meetings including the remote workers won't be a problem but there are many 'meetings' that happen in a work context where important information is exchanged that are informal that remote workers will miss out on.

I think this is an org-smell though, I shouldn't miss out on important details because I was in the stall or taking a quick walk either. My first job was remote communications oriented despite being overwhelmingly in-office employees, and it was amazing how much information you could find by searching communication channels and wikis. The norm was to ask questions and talk about impromptu problems in chat, and if you needed to collaborate you went to designated areas or scheduled a meeting. Remote workers weren't out if the loop and on site new hires like myself had a huge wealth of searchable info to absorb

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#403

Post by McWobbleston » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

Treblemaker wrote: post #196

jpollock wrote: post #174

I miss being able to tell if I'm interrupting a coworker's state of flow or not with a quick message. When everyone's in the office, I can _see_ when they get back to their desk and haven't gotten into anything again. I can see that my question isn't going to interrupt them. As it stands, I interrupt everyone and they interrupt me. I haven't been able to get into flow during office hours in 18months. Code review disc…

ping "Hey, Bob, can I share my desktop and show you something?" Five minutes later, Bob is fixing his mistake. Or, Bob has notifications turned off, and he lets me know as soon as he's available again. My point is that the tools are there to address this concern. I don't go a day without sharing my desktop or looking at someone else's. And in some ways it's even more efficient and less disruptive than getting up, wal…

I can't describe how distracting it is for me personally to have to overhear every screen share in a physical office, and how great and easy it is to do it remotely and even pull in another couple people if something they're knowledgeable about comes up

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#404

Post by McWobbleston » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

foxes wrote: post #99

Seems like their life would be dramatically better if they didn’t have some horrible car hellscape based commute. Pity cities are designed and spread out so because of cars. Then making the office more comfortable and flexible without people micromanaging would be the next thing.

Unfortunately even in Chicago I found the commute to be exhausting when I lived right next to a train. It was still 40+ minutes if you got there right as the train was leaving, and most offices are still 10-20 minute walk from the stations. Living closer was possible but then you'll be paying significantly more on rent for less space (a problem for families)

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#405

Post by sam0x17 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

gregoriol wrote: post #124

sam0x17 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that people keep framing it as a "preference" issue. There are HUGE economic and environmental costs that go along with working in and (often) commuting to an office. Not to mention the consistent 20-30% productivity drain working in an office seems to have across the board at most tech orgs. We don't need to destroy our planet, dramatically increase costs, and dramatically lower productivity just to appease t…

Well, there are also huge human costs that go along with working alone all day, and in the same environment as the rest of your life. For example, commuting, while not nice most of the time, has one great impact on life: it allows you to break from work, which is not happening when you have sleep/work/hobbies/life at the same place. I'm not saying you should spend 1h in traffic or subway, but 20min and walking would…

As someone who worked in an office for 5 years and has now worked remotely for 5 years, I have to say, this just isn't true. I get the same "peaceful reflection time" from simply walking my dog that I used to get from commuting.

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#406

Post by McWobbleston » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #373

foxpurple wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They shouldn’t be travelling that far at all. They should be within a walkable distance of where they need to go. Walking to work is never stressful and often does reverse.

Yes I'm going to live in an ugly industrial zone with no shops or nature around.

And only be able to afford a 700sqft studio if I'm lucky

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#407

Post by sam0x17 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

MrScruff wrote: post #177

gregoriol wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are also huge human costs that go along with working alone all day, and in the same environment as the rest of your life. For example, commuting, while not nice most of the time, has one great impact on life: it allows you to break from work, which is not happening when you have sleep/work/hobbies/life at the same place. I'm not saying you should spend 1h in traffic or subway, but 20min and walking would…

Completely agree. I'm actually working full time in the office just so I have a working environment that's actually optimised for focusing on work, even though it's primarily empty. There's no way I'd work for a company that insisted I work in the same space I live in. I cycle in and my commute is one of the highlights of my day. When some colleagues are occasionally in the office they all comment on how much being b…

Many people who work remotely will go to a coffee shop or WeWork. But my point is this -- people who have this urge to be in person and can't be placated reasonably are both in the minority and are essentially a problem when what they want is much more expensive and damaging.

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#408

Post by sam0x17 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

scatters wrote: post #362

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also go walking/running if you WFH, which I do. At any time I want. If I'm stressed of work mid day I'll just go running for an hour and will feel super. Couldn't properly do that if I worked from office.

Why not? What's stopping you?

Depending on where your office is (typically some sort of city) this can actually be pretty dangerous (hit+run, crime, breathing very unhealthy air). Conversely if you work remotely, you can live in the suburbs or even somewhere more remote.

Additionally, I know in many in-person orgs leaving to go outside and smoke is super frowned upon and seen as a productivity drain. I assume "going for a quick run" would have the same effect at your off-the-shelf toxic org. In a remote org, no one is going to be breathing down your neck while you take 15 mins to go for a walk to collect your thoughts. Especially if we keep passing privacy legislation that limits the ability of the Amazons of the world to install spyware on worker machines.

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#409

Post by jasondclinton » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

chhxxhh wrote: post #380

jasondclinton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is obvious: structured training and mentoring. When the pandemic hit, I was hiring a team of 5 new engineers. What was I going to do? Throw up my hands? I implemented a weekly technical training program that morphed into the 250 person org official onboarding. Weekly, I literally just get someone on a VC for 30 minutes and record having a conversation about a technical topic at a noobie level. 16 months…

You can't replace human contact with technology, it will never be an adequate substitute. We are social animals and I think the increased push to doing everything online will damage peoples mental wellbeing in the long term

The mentors and mentees meet daily for the first few weeks and then taper off to as-need screen sharing sessions. So, plenty of human contact.

Re: I went to the office for the first time. I fucking hated it

#410

Post by tshaddox » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #198

tshaddox wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you paid for more space or you lost space at your home during the 8 hours you were previously working at an office.

> you lost space at your home during the 8 hours I guess that's true, but I'm not sure why I would care about my home getting slightly smaller when I'm at work. It will affect some people, but I don't know if it's many.

Not just when you’re at work, unless you tear down your desk and store it out of sight every single day!

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