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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how buying expensive consumer electronics helps either, given how the excess profits continue to be captured rather than fairly distributed. There's even case studies celebrating these COOs turned CEOs for how well they've "optimised" their supply chains.

Well, my point was more to stop buying consumer electronics we don't really need, that just marginally increase our quality of life. Not that we should buy expensive electronics instead.

Another option legally would be to disincentive the purchase of materials manufactured in those overseas areas to which you refer, or tax the bejesus out of companies using them as labor sources. I think there’s room for talk of tariffs and tax penalties for offshoring labor/manufacturing, and I’m not really familiar with other levers to turn that would fix this. Efforts to enforce better working conditions in other countries come and go, are easy to game and are quickly forgotten.

The parts of our society that profit off cheap offshore labor are quick to spin stories accusing people of being nationalist/protectionist/racist, but their profit margin is being defended in the process and the issues distracted from.

At the same time, if I lived in a largely agrarian society and factory work offered me the choice to get out of poor farm labor work, I’d jump at it the same way my ancestors did. I feel most of us can appreciate the value and prosperity that the global supply chain has brought, while simultaneously lamenting the destruction of domestic industry and the exploitation that has accompanied it.

We don’t have to be all-for or all-against, though I think when “free trade” agreements come up, they should be regarded very suspiciously, and when accusations fly about nationalism and protectionism, those should be seen as the cheap and distracting rhetorical devices they are.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#402
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor isn't the collective resource. It's the negotiating power.

The negotiating power only exists because of my participation. I am not destroying something that would exist anyway by my lack of participation.

Workers are weaker when scabs undermine their collective bargaining power.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#403

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

Correlation is not causation, and in this case it’s a stretch to argue that’s what he was saying. “Don’t vote union, you’ll have to move to Detroit!” Has anyone seen joining unions actually cause positions that got stock to stop getting stock? Is this like an overwhelmingly common thing I don’t know about?

> Has anyone seen joining unions actually cause positions that got stock to stop getting stock? Is this like an overwhelmingly common thing I don’t know about?

It's an overt threat. Tesla has used it's stock compensation as a weapon against employees in the past. There are countless examples of people being fired days/weeks before stock options vested, essentially a form of wage theft:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-19/tesla-wor... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/01/tesla-p... https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/iiwuxr/she_moved...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#404
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a commons problem; voluntary membership means free-riders will destroy the collective resource.

Is that sufficient reason to coerce others to participate? Why should people who want to collectively bargain have a veto over the people who don’t want that?

The other side of the coin is why should people who don't want to collectively bargain have a veto over the people who do? (Since that's what happens when management can circumvent the union -- the union loses its bargaining power.)

As for how to choose, I'm not sure.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#405
post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

Isn't the relationship between unions and corporations NECESSARILY confrontational?

A corporation would like to pay its employees as little as possible. The employees would like the opposite. What am I missing? - genuine question.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually read your comment in good faith expecting to see some actual union-specific critiques, but it is just an absurdly biased caricature of the very worst of people and motives who exist in every type of organisation. Having read it, I now don't believe for one minute you "had a naive image in mind" before or "opened your eyes" after your experience.

Power in all forms corrupts whether its corporate, governmental, or union. No organization of humans is free of these sorts of things which is why individual freedoms are important. OP's naivety was the ignorance of the aforementioned condition of human organizations.

> Power in all forms corrupts whether its corporate, governmental, or union. No organization of humans is free of these sorts of things which is why individual freedoms are important. OP's naivety was the ignorance of the aforementioned condition of human organizations.

This isn't an argument against unions, it is an argument against any kind of human organization. Its more damning to how Tesla is now then to Tesla with unionized workers. Following your logic you should be all for unions and if you took it further, anti-capitalist.

Also, power doesn't corrupt. It reveals.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#407

[flagged]

> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer. > I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to ta…

> That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer

I think a bad union is more common than a bad company, since collectives run democratically produce less agile and less productive outcomes than collectives run executively. Unfortunately a union has to run democratically, because they seek to produce equitable outcomes, not productive outcomes.

To rephrase what I'm saying, I would prefer a single manager deciding how my job functions over a democratically elected committee deciding how my job functions, except when it comes to negotiating higher wages, compensation, obvious safety concerns, hours, etc.

> I do think its cute that you think that a democratic union is akin to communism. There is nothing stopping a workplace from having more than one union, its quite common in the UK

I don't think it is akin to communism, I just think the same failings that enable people to blindly prefer communism also lead them to blindly prefer unions. In my experience in the US, unions typically negotiate an exclusive and mandatory contract with the company. All employees have to join the union.

Reading the wiki on US unions, it seems the things I complain about are actually caused by the US federal union laws themselves. The worst part being:

> Once the union won the support of a majority of the bargaining unit and is certified in a workplace, it has the sole authority to negotiate the conditions of employment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_S...

[edit]: Too add, it seems clear that unions, as they currently are in the US, are useful for lower paid, low skill jobs. For higher skill, higher pay jobs, which this Tesla job may be, I don't think unions are an obvious good.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#408
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect more nuance from an HN reader. It's possible for both amazon and warren to be in the wrong.

I don't see where Warren is wrong here. Care to explain it? Because it seems like the point of view advocated is "Politicans should not express views I don't like on social media"

If Warren tweeted that she was going to break up amazon because they were harming consumers and mistreating workers, etc, that would be one thing.

Instead, she is going after amazon as a personal vendetta because she feels 'heckled'. She is explicitly attacking first amendment rights. It's a textbook case of corruption / abuse of power.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#409
post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

The horrors of... a 35 hour workweek, 5 weeks paid vacation, 16 weeks paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, and no at-will employment?

Ah, classic selection bias blinders on. Sure, great benefits for those who have jobs. What about for the people who can't get employed due to the conditions on labor? The young, poor, already jobless? Not so much concern for them, you got yours.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say unions are not successful, I said that workplaces like VW or Porsche are not the norm in Germany. They're like Germany's FAANG; very successful, but not the norm for every industry employee there since they don't all enjoy such good conditions.

I have yet to hear people in Europe being upset that they are unionized.

Um, some unemployed rioters and burning cars in France every single weekend would beg to differ with you.
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