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Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

bloomberg.com

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Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#401

Post by FooBarWidget »

redis_mlc wrote: post #363
FooBarWidget wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The initial scientific name is similar, but it is still a different virus with very different characteristics. As I said: it is less lethal than SARS but MUCH more contagious, plus a much longer incubation time and possibility of asymptomatic spread. Sars cannot be spread asymptomatically. About the only things similar are that they are both coronaviruses, and the symptoms. I am not being pedantic at all, these chara…

I don't agree. SARS-1 and SARS-2 are both highly contagious and had similar effects on decimating hospital staff. You can read the effect on Toronto hospitals in 2002 by SARS-1 to get an idea of the panic it caused, wiping out whole ICU teams. Just like SARS-2 (Covid-19.)

Wiping out ICU teams is a property of lethality, not so much contagiousness. Only 8000 people was infected by sars 1 and China didn’t even have lockdown at the time. The contagiousness and long incubation times are key this time. Otherwise you may as well compare it to Ebola.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#402

Post by jeeeeb »

systemvoltage wrote: post #148
hkmurakami wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally enjoyed the hypocrisy of China initially requesting Nations to not "overreact" and close borders to its travelers (mid February), then proceeding to do exactly this towards these same nations (mid March) when things became worse overseas.

CCP does not understand that playing asymmetric games from business laws (booting Uber off of China for example), diplomacy and global influence, etc is damaging long term brand and goodwill. In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice - complete Wuhan style measures are unacceptable say in Sweden. This asymmetry is going to give a short term boost to China. Lon…

> In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice

South Korea, Taiwan, New Zealand, Australia, Finland, Norway and Malaysia all look to have handled the crisis very well. India is as well - as far as their figures are to be believed. We'll also find out if Japan's handling of the crisis has been effective in the coming weeks.

I'm not really seeing a pattern in democracies handling this badly. Meanwhile while the Chinese figures probably aren't completely made up, it's also extremely doubtful how reliable they are.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#403

Post by _jahh »

ForHackernews wrote: post #265
systemvoltage wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP does not understand that playing asymmetric games from business laws (booting Uber off of China for example), diplomacy and global influence, etc is damaging long term brand and goodwill. In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice - complete Wuhan style measures are unacceptable say in Sweden. This asymmetry is going to give a short term boost to China. Lon…

> It is already changing: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-08/japan... . This is the same article as the OP.

that's the joke; ggp proves the point

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#404

Post by ShinTakuya »

hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #31
ShinTakuya wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree in part that it's not fair, I would argue against the idea that jobs were lost in Japan. Maybe temporarily lost, but in the end economically you end up finding another way to contribute value and be paid. Moreover the companies can't be blamed for taking the most profitable route. It's up to the governments to regulate.

I disagree. Many of the jobs that left Japan and the United States in the 80's and 90's are not coming back - they've already been replaced by robots. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Cashiers, accountants and drivers are all being replaced by robots and automated systems. These jobs are going away and aren't going to be replaced by a comparable entry-level job. This automation is picking up pace now and will onl…

Oh I agree with the view that automation will eventually cause mass unemployment, and is already having an impact. All I'm saying is that at the time that production for these things moved overseas (decades ago), this did not suddenly increase the unemployment rate for the country that lost the jobs. New jobs end up being created.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#405

Post by vsskanth »

apostacy wrote: post #358
apostacy wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be subsidizing local workers whose wages are already higher at the expense of foreign labor that has more need for the income. It sounds to me like you're saying that it is unfair to strangers that you would help out your family first before helping them. Most countries do subsidize…

Anyone care to respond instead of just downvoting?

i would disagree with you on two points

- work visas aren't subsidized. not even close. it costs a lot to sponsor and the workers pay taxes without benefits. not to mention the brain drain.

- you've grouped people as working for countries. people work for their own benefit and compete globally. as long as countries ensure their trading partners have humane working conditions, it's up to each person to remain globally competitive. your wage is a loose function of value generated for the employer.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#406

Post by nybble41 »

int_19h wrote: post #361
nybble41 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency It is efficiency, really, because it's making better use of an underutilized resource. Over time, of course, the price of labor evens out because the resource is no longer underutilized. > more a question of fairness If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be…

> Over time, of course, the price of labor evens out because the resource is no longer underutilized. The price would have evened out if labor could cross borders as freely as the goods that it produces - then it would flow to areas where it's in high demand. But with borders and immigration controls and different laws (esp. environment and labor) in different jurisdictions, it's not really a free market. Instead, it…

> The price would have evened out if labor could cross borders as freely as the goods that it produces…

That would certainly speed up the process. However, labor prices are still gradually rising in China and other common outsourcing areas despite these restrictions. As are environmental standards. I'm not saying it's an ideal free market—there are governments involved, after all. But free or not, the trade is still advantageous for both sides.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#407

Post by DeonPenny »

tren-hard wrote: post #5

So Japanese companies move operations to China because it's cheaper, leaving Japanese jobs behinds. Those businesses profit from cheap labor, emissions, and materials. Now Japan is subsidizing their return to Japan with $2.2 billion. I really hope the US doesn't adopt this (narrator: they will). It's a slap in the face to tax payers.

I pray they do its a long time coming and then put barriers from it happening again

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#408

Post by DeonPenny »

_wldu wrote: post #83

The USA really needs to stop rewarding the quarterly profit driven stock market approach to management. It's the same thing that caused Boeing to build bad airplanes and the same thing that causes companies to build insecure software. We need to get back to engineers and architects (who actually know what they are doing) making decisions and building solid solutions and products. Companies can be reasonably profitabl…

It's also the think that drove innovation in those industries to begin with

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#409

Post by nybble41 »

apostacy wrote: post #342
nybble41 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency It is efficiency, really, because it's making better use of an underutilized resource. Over time, of course, the price of labor evens out because the resource is no longer underutilized. > more a question of fairness If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be…

> If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be subsidizing local workers whose wages are already higher at the expense of foreign labor that has more need for the income. It sounds to me like you're saying that it is unfair to strangers that you would help out your family first before helping them. Most countries do subsidize…

> It sounds to me like you're saying that it is unfair to strangers that you would help out your family first before helping them.

Well, yes, it is unfair to the strangers that you're favoring the people you personally care about when others are worse off. Being unfair doesn't necessarily make it wrong. You're free to help whoever you want—with your own resources. However, organizations distributing resources they took by force, or enforcing their own rules on others, ought to be held to higher standards.

> Chinese workers are ultimately working for China.

Chinese workers are ultimately working for themselves and their own families, just like all workers everywhere. Not for the Chinese government. If you have a problem with the Chinese government forcibly and unjustly profiting from the labor of Chinese workers, great! So do I. The same goes for every other government, both foreign and domestic.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#410

Post by redis_mlc »

redis_mlc wrote: post #362
philliphaydon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We heard about it just before Xmas time in Singapore. Basically that there was another SARS outbreak in china. It was definitely known before the 26th.

FYI: there was a powerful, contagious flu-like disease circulating already in SE Asia between Dec. 6 and Dec. 15. If anybody in public healthcare seriously wants to know more, contact me and I'll narrow down the dates, symptoms and locations and you can verify if it was corona virus or a different illness.

Fascinating ... the dates Dec. 1, Dec. 6 and Dec. 16 are mentioned in this article, which almost match the flu dates I mentioned above:

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devas...

Based on those dates, it's possible Covid-19 was on Chinese airliners as early as Dec. 1 - 8. Wuhan has an international airport that connects to Shanghai (Pudong), which is a major international hub.

So that moves the onset possibly back into November.

Researchers should be looking at Chinese death certificates for the month of November if they're looking for patient zero.

(I've read about one unconfirmed US flu case in October that sounds like corona, but I'll look around for some more info.)

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