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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#401

Post by hising »

nec4b wrote: post #399
hising wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation So what type of conversation are you having right now? We have word in swedish for using that type of "arguing", it is "offerkofta". I dont think it is a good word for it in english, but starting a discussion in an open forum saying something and then stating you are not "ALLOWED" to discuss what you are discussing is just…

Had you bothered to read this little sub thread, you would have noticed that the original post was down voted into oblivion. Is that what you call a conversation in Sweden?

See my response to another comment below ...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#402

Post by hising »

nec4b wrote: post #399
hising wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation So what type of conversation are you having right now? We have word in swedish for using that type of "arguing", it is "offerkofta". I dont think it is a good word for it in english, but starting a discussion in an open forum saying something and then stating you are not "ALLOWED" to discuss what you are discussing is just…

Had you bothered to read this little sub thread, you would have noticed that the original post was down voted into oblivion. Is that what you call a conversation in Sweden?

And saying that "you are not allowed to have this conversation" is like saying: "If you argue against me you are part of the problem". So it is a good way of just throwing out an argument and killing conversation.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#403

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #22

Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a…

> I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a lot to small kids.

I agree as well, but not so much in the ages of 0-6 months. The biggest bonding for me when I was on parental leave was definitely with my older children, who I was now the primary caregiver. That time was really special and meaningful to all of us.

Don’t get me wrong. I love holding my new born, but (for me) it wasn’t the same type of bonding experience.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#404

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #247
socialdemocrat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just that the days get wasted if you don't take them. So you would be stupid not to do it. > Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people. That is kind of a selfish attitude. The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? I remember back in that time. I was quite happy to go back to work the first weeks, bec…

> The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? > What about your wife's career. Isn't she held back if she had to spend all the time taking care of the kids? Why should she not be given similar opportunities as you? He is working, and perhaps his wife prefers caring for their child to working a job. If it's working for them, why criticize? Why is it wrong for th…

[deleted]

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#405

Post by gnud »

lanstin wrote: post #390
gnud wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These policies have definitively contributed to a big social change. And while it looks on the surface like this is about "fairness for dad", on a macro level the changes mostly benefit women who want to both have kids and a career. It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids. At my job, I also see way more dads staying home wit…

I think it also establishes a connection between the dad and the kids that makes the dad a better parent down the road. At least spending a lot of time with my infants did change me enough to be a much better parent for the rest of the journey.

Absolutely - and I love the change, in case that wasn't clear. But I think the motivation was about equality for the sexes - and specifically, making it easier for women to work. The rest is just a bonus. A very nice bonus.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#406

Post by toomuchtodo »

tyscore wrote: post #253
aguyfromnb wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? "Skip the work"? He literally said he's working..a job. Unfortunately, in the society we've built it is considered the most important work, since it pays the bills and enables the ability to start a family. I agree it's important that both people share the burden of parenthood, but let's not swing it so far the othe…

But this is why the paternity leave is being offered. So that your 'sole source of income' is not stopped while you can do the 'work' and share equally in the workload of rearing the child that YOU decided you wanted. The original commenter is insinuating that even with this facility he will prefer to go to his 'real work' esp when the kid is small and the child-rearing work is not satisfactory enough and that frankl…

My partner and I agreed ahead of time how the workload would be divided. Is the problem that you take issue with how it's divided? Why must the workload be shared equally?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#407

Post by kmlx »

europe-romania wrote: post #100
kmlx wrote: post #81

an interesting story from japan: they have 1 year parental leave for men and women. but just 8% of men actually took it compared with 82% for women. the reason is the same across the planet: they would be left behind at work. compare this with the former communist country of Romania, today an EU country: 126 days for women, 5 days for men. income during those times is payed for by the state (80%). societal discrimina…

> compare this with the former communist country of Romania, today an EU country: 126 days for women, 5 days for men. income during those times is payed for by the state (80%). Not true

sorry, that was "maternity leave", not "raising a child leave". for "raising a child" it's a maximum of 2 years, granted you've worked for 12 full months before, right?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#408

Post by watwut »

growlist wrote: post #378
the_af wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work. I don't buy this narrative, sorry. Also, of course women who want to stay at home taking care of the babies while the father is less involved in child-rearing are perfectly welcome to do it. It's just that I think it's unfair that society expect…

But hang on - you painted a picture of the burnt out tired mother that can't wait to get back to work, away from the drudgery of motherhood. I'm saying that's not a fair representation of many womens' priorities. I could even take it a step further and say that for many women, emancipation in terms of employment has destroyed their chances of having what would really make them happy (a family life) due to the need to…

There are still stay at home moms, either cause they like it, for children or because it makes economical sense. And there were always women who had to work. At every single point in history.

And to be flippant, it is easier to swap employer when things go wrong, abusive or violent. And practically, ability to earn money do improve this aspect significantly.

It makes things better if husband dies or get sick too.

Also, if the husband is working 12 hours a day in two jobs, you don't get much familly with him either. He kind of becomes wallet.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#409

Post by robocat »

keanzu wrote: post #374
rileymat2 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think for this sort of discussion you need to look at per capita production in the linked chart.

Production only tells half the story. To figure out how much surplus you have for social engineering you need: surplus = production - consumption The US was a net importer of oil up until September 2019. There's almost no surplus.

That’s equivalent of someone saying they can’t afford time off for kids because they already spend all their money... when it turns out they just don’t want to give up some luxuries: it’s just setting priorities.

Here’s some economic comparisons: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/finland/usa

GDP per capita Finland 49,738$ US 65,462$

Average Wage Finland 52,890$ US 54,951$

Debt Per Capita Finland 29,624$ US 65,545$

Annual Vehicles / 1,000 p. Finland 23.68 US 53.85

CO2 Tons per capita Finland 8.80 US 16.14

Also Finland has a similar population to Oregon - although it would be more fun to compare it against say Texas for purposes of oil production and the point being made!

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#410

Post by tylermw »

nickbauman wrote: post #292

I don't know what it's like in the Nordic countries but here in the US I walk down the street with a 4 year old on my shoulders to work every day to drop her off at school. The women I pass on the street and in the halls beam at her when she greets them and sometimes they exchange a few words. The men? They don't notice her: she's edited out of their minds eye like she doesn't exist, even if she cries "HULLOOO! My na…

Replace your child with a full grown adult and you BET I'm ignoring someone trying to chat me up while I'm hustling to work in the morning :)

Just saying, don't take other adults not interacting with your child as some overarching statement about gender in society.

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