Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#341

Post by belorn » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

Remembering conclusions from studies done in the past, the fathers in Finland that takes up on the offer and use similar amount of parental leave are going to suffer more in terms of decreased wages and loss of career progress compare to mothers.

People who do not conform to gender expected behavior usually get punished by society, even if politically the same society want the opposite to happen. Giving people the choice to break conformity is still a positive move, and in the long term culture might change enough that taking parental leave (and sick days) won't have a negative effect on both career and wages.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#342

Post by gdubs » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #311

myle wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year…

> Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. This isn't breastfeeding, unfortunately. Your baby was fed breast-milk, but not breastfed. Not a value judgement, but a father feeding a baby from a bottle isn't exactly the same thing developmentally.

This is very condescending. I’m gonna assume the partner nursed the other times she was with the child, like at night. While we can be overly pedantic about the fact that during the day, the baby was bottle fed with breast milk, people have enough stress around breastfeeding as it is; am i doing it right? Does it still count if I pump during the day? Etc etc.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#343

Post by enumjorge » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #223

the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

The erosion of wages has many causes, not just women having more equal opportunity in the workforce. I’d argue wages have been much more affected by the accumulation of wealth into the top of the food chain.

And that aside, what’s the alternative? Relegate women to work only as teachers and secretaries because some of them want to be stay at home moms?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#344

Post by hising » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #179

romaaeterna wrote: post #142

My family is of Norwegian extraction and I'm a dad too. My wife has a completely different relationship with my kids than I do. She also had to go through a great deal more to birth them than I did. Her parental leave was as much about medical recovery as it was bonding time with the kids. And, to put this delicately, but as something that needs to be stated because it's true and important for the discussion: she has…

The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation. To state the obvious fact that men and women are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (in general, as a sex) is tantamount to heresy, I guess because gender roles are associated with perceived past injustices. > Personally, I find that this "gender equality" push winds up being extraordinarily anti-woman in…

> The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation

So what type of conversation are you having right now? We have word in swedish for using that type of "arguing", it is "offerkofta". I dont think it is a good word for it in english, but starting a discussion in an open forum saying something and then stating you are not "ALLOWED" to discuss what you are discussing is just a way of victimizing oneself and make it more or less impossible for other people to argue against. If I argue against you can always call me politically correct or stating that I just dont see behind the propaganda. "Offerkofta" by the way is literally "putting on the victim cardigan".

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#345

Post by brewdad » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #311

myle wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year…

> Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. This isn't breastfeeding, unfortunately. Your baby was fed breast-milk, but not breastfed. Not a value judgement, but a father feeding a baby from a bottle isn't exactly the same thing developmentally.

Mothers breastfeed when they can and can pump milk for the times when they can't. Baby still gets the nutritional benefits of breast milk and bonding time with each parent.

Your argument is the same as saying I didn't eat a nourishing home-cooked meal because I heated up last night's leftovers for lunch today. It's still way better than fast food.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#346

Post by dcolkitt » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #262

hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

The broader issue is that having/raising children doesn't fit with the otherwise fairly materialistic value system our society has. Childless women earn just as much as men. Forcing fathers to take family leave does fix the asymmetry between parents (mothers vs fathers), but will exacerbate the difference between parents and non-parents by penalizing not just mothers, but also fathers for having children, vs. non-par…

> I think that no discussion/policy about parental leave is complete without some kind of incentive for people to have kids

The simplest way to incentive more kids is to make housing cheap. The biggest downside to most people considering children is the cost of family formation. And by far the biggest component of that is the cost of housing.

Western governments are doing quite the opposite of promoting kids. They're actively pursuing policies that constrict the supply of housing. These favor older post-childrearing homeowners at the expense of young potential families. Abolish zoning and land-use restrictions in metros like San Francisco and New York, and watch fertility rates boom as property prices collapse.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#347

Post by conanbatt » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

luch wrote: post #56

conanbatt wrote: post #23

> while fathers are given 2.2 months until the child turns two. However, on average only one in four of them take what they are given. The current plans now talk only of parental leave. Is it conceivable that fathers actually don't want to spend that much time at home and that the Finland Government is strong-handing them into doing it? One frustration I have in this topic is that it is seldom mentioned that any pare…

this is paid leave (it's only an allowance, not usually a full salary though). Where I live it's up to a year for a father, but most of them do not take it since we are still entrenched in the "father at work/mother at home" society

The key issue with paid leave is...paid by whom?

If its not paid by the parents, who is paying for it? It often is a mix of co-workers, consumers, and taxpayers.

What society is and can be changed is one thing, what you do by making that society ilegal is another one.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#348

Post by relaxing » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

rileymat2 wrote: post #327

_jal wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens So what's the United State's excuse? (A lot of US citizens are somehow unaware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... )

I think for this sort of discussion you need to look at per capita production in the linked chart.

US per capita production is 1/10th that of Norway. I would gladly take 1/10th the paid leave given in the article (164 days), which GP failed to notice was for oil-less Finland anyway.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#349

Post by conanbatt » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

hugg wrote: post #41

conanbatt wrote: post #23

> while fathers are given 2.2 months until the child turns two. However, on average only one in four of them take what they are given. The current plans now talk only of parental leave. Is it conceivable that fathers actually don't want to spend that much time at home and that the Finland Government is strong-handing them into doing it? One frustration I have in this topic is that it is seldom mentioned that any pare…

Well, they could just not take the days, then.

I am pretty sure that if instead of parental leave you gave a bonus equal to the salary of that leave, thats what would happen. Because that is what happens.

Somehow it is egregious to say that you will get a 50k Euro/100k dollar bonus if you have a kid, but somehow if its paid by not working it makes sense?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#350

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

hising wrote: post #344

ceilingcorner wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation. To state the obvious fact that men and women are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (in general, as a sex) is tantamount to heresy, I guess because gender roles are associated with perceived past injustices. > Personally, I find that this "gender equality" push winds up being extraordinarily anti-woman in…

> The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation So what type of conversation are you having right now? We have word in swedish for using that type of "arguing", it is "offerkofta". I dont think it is a good word for it in english, but starting a discussion in an open forum saying something and then stating you are not "ALLOWED" to discuss what you are discussing is just…

This is a mostly anonymous forum which is slightly more open to controversial ideas than the average media outlet. Any person openly questioning the effectiveness of treating men and women as exact equals is usually treated as some sort of ultra conservative or fringe figure in the media.

People in general have a hard time understanding the idea that there are different scales of value. The old Einstein quote about a fish judging itself to be stupid because it can’t climb a tree is relevant here.

I’m also referring to American society. I don’t know how Sweden is.