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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

401–410 of 436 posts

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#401
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have no rights and should not have any to pressure any country to push their own idea of how things should work in another country To believe that China does not attempt to influence other countries is naive. China puts a great deal of pressure on other nations with regard to things like recognition of Taiwan or inviting the Dalai Lama to speak. These have occasionally been in the news over the last few years,…

China certainly has a very strong view on the make-up of the region, much is historical, some of it fair. However, we don't see them going around converting everyone to communism. In fact, even all the investment they are doing in Africa right now, very little of the social aspects of china are being exported. Xi Jinping has always maintained: china is not for export.

> In fact, even all the investment they are doing in Africa right now, very little of the social aspects of china are being exported.

China has repeatedly lobbied, with some success now, for East African nations to adopt its "Great Firewall" network infrastructure.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#402

The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#403
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, See, you're missing the point again. India is irrelevant to this discussion. It's tangential at best. Let's look at an example: mywacaday asked [1]: "Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China" And you responded [2]: "Because it will degrade democracy in countries like India." No. That's not the reason. Th…

The censorship project won't remain confined to China. Absolutely and directly relevant, as countries that have germinating democracies right now will not continue on the path. If this project gets implemented in China, India is next and I have a right to bring my viewpoint to this discussion. India already loves censorship as it is. Looks like your issue is why India is being mentioned, I have no control over your e…

> The censorship project won't remain confined to China.

I agree, but this is not the immediate issue with the current decision being made - as you implied. The immediate issue is the enforcement of the loss of freedom for Chinese citizens.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw I think you're being mildly too revisionist in the other direction. The major issue with the hacking wasn't stealing source code, but attempts to access user data. Certainly accessing source code is bad, but imo in general Google protects user data much moreso than source code. (I work at Google)

>in general Google protects user data How is storing and cataloging reams of private data 'protecting' it? If your significant other was constantly noting every friend you talked to, every purchase you made, videotaping your every move, would you call that protecting them? To protect a user's data, it shouldn't even be collected in the first place. I think a better choice of words is that Google does a better job at…

Google protects the user data from access by others. The data is valuable only if Google alone has access to this data and can sell it as a monopoly premium product.

If everyone had access to the user data the value would be 0.

Of course, Google doesn't give a shit about protecting the privacy of their users, they hoover up all they can and then bunker it.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is a difference between not having a choice You have no choice? >and justifying unethical behavior. I get it. It's not unethical when you engage in commerce with a regime you find unethical, or when you buy from all the other companies that manufacture their goods in China ... but it's unethical if Google doesn't want to ignore 1.4 billion people? >The fact that this is the only sentence you've touched speaks…

> It's not unethical when you engage in commerce with a regime you find unethical or when you buy from all the other companies that manufacture their goods in China Who says it's not unethical? Why are you putting words in peoples' mouths? On one hand you talk about having a good-faith discussion but then you go ahead and base your argument off of words you've put in someone else's mouth. > but it's unethical if Goog…

>Who says it's not unethical? Why are you putting words in peoples' mouths?

OK. I guess I made the reasonable assumption that buying Chinese goods or buying goods from companies that do business in Chinese is not intrinsically unethical since it is something is completely pervasive. The fact that neither the public, nor democratic governments, nor any companies have any qualms

So I'm sorry if I stumbled upon a hypocrite who hates himself for engaging in the unethical action of living in a modern globalized society.

>On one hand you talk about having a good-faith discussion

I sure do and still do. You tell me, was OP's first comment a good-faith start to a discussion? If not, why are you hassling me? Because you agree with OP - that's the standard here?

>Most people find corruption of data far worse than the absence of data.

Got stats for that? Or are we projecting how we feel on the rest of the world.

But to rephrase it, do you think Chinese citizens should have the option to use the same products that their peers in other countries do? The actual point I made however had a different focus, mainly - do you think a company who competes with other companies can just ignore a market of 1.4 billion people when none of their other competitors do? Companies go bankrupt all the time. Even a multinational Fortune 100 company will have a life expectancy of 40-50 years. So the entire point was: - No western government hasn't taken steps to isolate this 'unethical' regime. - The public is perfectly fine with travelling to China, buying from China, doing business with companies who do business in China. - All of Google's competitors are in China.

But Google is evil because they only lasted 8 years of their self-imposed exile (and if you remember, their leaving China was precipitated by Chinese hacking attack against their servers).

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These "historical processes" are 100% made up of the acts and failures to act of individuals. That's obviously false. Trivial example: a volcanic eruption or some other natural catastrophe can change the course of a country's history. You can look at Mount Vesuvius all you want, it won't stop it from erupting. Modern democracies are in fact the exact opposite of what you are describing. They are not made up of coun…

> a volcanic eruption or some other natural catastrophe can change the course of a country's history Affecting history doesn't make it a "historic process" in the sense we are talking about where people have no choice but to follow along. History isn't something like gravity, it's us recording descriptions of what happened (volcano erupting) and what people did (politics). > Politicians ignore most people's opinions…

> Affecting history doesn't make it a "historic process" in the sense we are talking about where people have no choice but to follow along. History isn't something like gravity, it's us recording descriptions of what happened (volcano erupting) and what people did (politics).

Well, no. "History" is both an academic discipline (humans narrating what happens), and the process of events itself. That process involves a lot of non-human factors, which are deterministic. And human action itself is arguably also deterministic, especially in democracy, because the masses can most certainly be manipulated, and respond quasi-mechanically to mass stimuli.

> Which is an action on their behalf, not some kind of magic force. If people in turn ignored such politicians, many politicians would struggle to find even basic constructive work, and none would enjoy power over others.

But they know people won't take action against them. Why? Because their attention-span, taken as a crowd, is too short. They respond to immediate stimuli, not longer-term phenomena, and to emotion, not reflection. Democracy takes place on Twitter, not in the reading room of the British Museum.

> Nations, corporations, and history don't do shit. People do, and then we cluster and group and view it in abstract ways that are easier to handle, and sometimes useful, but putting the cart before the horse is overdoing it.

Sorry, not buying it. All the classical political theorists agree on this one point, that once you establish democracy, you're catering to the lowest common denominator, and that mass of people is very easy to direct with the right tools (mass education, mass media, mass incarceration,...).

> Hitler was a very crazy, very driven person taken over some fourth rate right-wing... club. It's not like history would have created someone similar if Hitler had broken his neck on the way to the first meeting.

Wrong. Historians agree that Germany got a very raw deal at the Treaty of Versailles, which led inexorably to the Weimar Republic, and therefore a European war of some kind was on the cards from day one. If it hadn't been, France would not have spent two decades building up the Maginot Line. It's Hitler's very mediocrity that best illustrates the strength of the historical forces pushing him along.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to interrupt another google bashing session on this site or stop an EU person from self-righteously patting themselves on the back but conflating several issues to justify political reprisal is exactly what's wrong with the EU's fine issuance regime and ad-hominem attacks on companies to try and justify the practice to yourself doesn't make it look better. Also "anti-trust" is an american term with historical con…

It's a different standard of measurement. American anti-trust is about preventing a monopoly from harming consumers via perverse incentives; European anti-trust is about preventing a competitor from driving other laborers out of the market (less emphasis placed on the end-result to the consumer). Case in point (though it was France-specific, it highlights the difference in viewpoint): Amazon was fined by the French g…

> It's a different standard of measurement. American anti-trust is about preventing a monopoly from harming consumers via perverse incentives; European anti-trust is about preventing a competitor from driving other laborers out of the market (less emphasis placed on the end-result to the consumer).

Which is odd, as I would say the EU have a far more impressive record of protecting the consumer than the US has.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#408
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. If the US is representing anybody, it’s Google. For the Americans who want your government to represent you , you’ve got some work to do. Most Americans I know speak of their government as though it were just some poorly run business that somebody else is responsible for. Get your own house in order before you criticize others peoples’.

get out of your echo chamber and speak to more Americans

He's on HN. It's an American-centric site.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#409
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember the "Don't Be Evil" campaign? Google literally rose to prominence with this as their slogan. I would expect a company whose slogan is "Don't Be Evil" to completely shun a country who wants censored search.

You would? Google is private company. If you want a powerful entity to live up to your standards, you should look into creating a government. I recommend a democracy; and hold your neighbors accountable for treating it as their own. Together, you can eventually build something to be proud of. It will probably never be perfect, but it will be yours for as long as you take care of it.

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#410

There are a couple of recurring themes here: 1. the hyper-moralising over google's business decisions, they're not the only company that modifies its business to access the chinese market nor is the chinese government the only one that demands censorship. 2. google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

>hyper-moralising over google's business decisions People are hyper moralizing because Google is hyper powerful. "With great power comes great responsibility". >google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects. Perhaps they are doing so because they see these as attemts to sabotage Google's mission: "To organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful."

> "With great power comes great responsibility".

Remember this is HN. That saying has been warped to read:

"With great power comes great piles of cash"

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