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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#401
post #19
post #9

Does this include housing, food, healthcare, etc. for Harvard figure? Looks like not, so the comparison is kinda meaningless. Also: The price for each inmate has doubled since 2005, even as court orders related to overcrowding have reduced the population by about one-quarter. Salaries and benefits for prison guards and medical providers drove much of the increase. I looked for the word "union" in the article and it's…

So you looked for evidence to support your a priori beliefs, didn't find it and still made insinuations. Good on you.

Er, what? I am struggling to understand how your comment relates to what I wrote. Once more:

1. Comparison of Harvard tuition to prisoner's costs is meaningless as done in the article

2. The article itself mentions costs raise mainly because of labor costs

3. The article itself mentions that drop in the inmates number did not reduce labor costs

4. The article does not mention any of the factors influencing labor costs.

Which evidence you think I am missing?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#402
post #233
post #146

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. T…

That does not resemble any religious doctrine I know of. The predominant one in the US, Christianity, views punishment on earth as corrective in nature, ie for rehabilitation, and also views prisons as serving the purpose of separating bad actors from society so they cannot damage others. There is no place for retribution, vengeance, etc. American culture seems to be fixated with vendetta, but it is not religious in…

At the heart of abrahamic religion is the idea that sinners will suffer God's wrath, in this life or the next. Which in turn gives righteous people the authority to punish sinners, because they are carrying out God's will.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.

Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says: > "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor. § 46.2-113: > [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18…

Traffic tickets are crimes in some places. OCGA 40-6-1(a):

> unless otherwise declared in this chapter with respect to particular offenses, it is a misdemeanor for any person to do any act forbidden or fail to perform any act required in this chapter.

Upside, we're entitled to real jury trials.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it silly? If you are socially irresponsible and destructive you should have consequences. Just like financially irresponsible results in a credit hit and difficulty getting loans. You label yourself a risk when you do dumb things. I actually know someone who didn't get a government job at an animal shelter because of his poor credit. He has an MBA too. I don't think that's fair but maybe financially irresponsi…

Consequences, like jail time?

Sure that's part of it if it's actually adequate, but people and businesses have a right to know if you have a criminal record and make risk-assessments based on that.

Jail time doesn't reverse your wrongdoing on society and the way it's currently setup - it's not really a redeeming process. Why should a business hire you over someone as qualified with no record?

We're basically talking about felonies anyway. Misdemeanors are generally irrelevant for most jobs and you can get those expunged from your record.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#405
post #359
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I most definitely did not make a mistake. Yes CCDC aka Clark County Detention Center (aka Las Vegas County Jail) is a jail in downtown Las Vegas where I did my kitchen slave labor recently on a 90-day sentence for basically jaywalking. If I were to be sentenced for more then a year, I would have been sent to a prison somewhere in the boonies of Nevada away from Vegas. The OP discussed a "3-year jail sentence", and…

>... on a 90-day sentence for basically jaywalking. Can you elaborate?

TLDR. There was meth involved apart from the jaywalking...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#406
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

But is there really a deterrence factor? Most people don't commit crimes, due to a personal moral code. Those who have morals that don't get in the way of crime, just use the deterrence factor to find ways of not getting caught. Now what would really help, especially with recidivism, is to use the profit motive of prisons in a different way. First-time offenders-- the prison gets paid full price. If an offender retur…

The private prisons have an interest in filling beds. That is where the money is. They don't get money by reducing recidivism, or providing job training, or providing preventative and maintenance health care (dentists to fill cavities so that the person doesn't need to get a root canal when they're released and then runs out of money on medical bills...)

Whats more, like stadiums and cities (the city paying the difference if there isn't enough attendance), there are private prisons that have a "lockup quota" ( https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2015/jul/31/report-find... | http://www.njjn.org/uploads/digital-library/Criminal-Lockup-... ) where the state pays for the bed be it full or empty.

This is part of the contract, and officials making short sighted deals that have the appearance of reducing costs while actually raising them in the long term is a oft heard refrain.

I have difficulty believing that any private, for profit company would be working to negatively impact its bottom line. While it is possible that there are places where improvements in efficiency over government run facilities can be had, at the end of the day the duty of the company is to the shareholders ( CXW - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreCivic , GEO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO_Group ) rather than to the taxpayers of a state.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2016/08/23/866325/0/e...

> Specifically, Defendants made false and/or misleading statements and/or failed to disclose that: (i) CCA’s facilities lacked adequate safety and security standards and were less efficient at offering correctional services than the Federal Bureau of Prisons’ (“BOP”) facilities; (ii) CCA’s rehabilitative services for inmates were less effective than those provided by BOP; (iii) consequently, the U.S. Department of Justice (“DOJ”) was unlikely to renew and/or extend its contracts with CCA; and (iv) as a result of the foregoing, CCA’s public statements were materially false and misleading at all relevant times.

The profit motive for a private prison has shown in the past that in the interest in short term gains they will understaff and cut back on programs. Give them everyone who has been incarcerated before and they'll take the profits they've gotten and close that franchise. Furthermore, the lobbying efforts of private companies creates odd incentives in writing laws and negotiating contracts compared to facilities run and maintained by state or federal workers.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#407
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing cheap about this labor, they are paying companies 70k to house someone so they can pay them 20c/h.

The cheapest kind of cheap is the one where you reap the benefits but make someone else pay the bill. And make that bill extra expensive, to add insult to injury.

Except it's the state paying for both prisoners and firefighting. So, it's more stealing money from your own left pocket.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. In the US, costs are never reimbursed in criminal trials. They might be reimbursed in civil suits, if rarely. Even the juror compensation is something ridiculous like $10/day. I don't think subpoenaed witnesses are compensated for anything.

> Even the juror compensation is something ridiculous like $10/day Yes, it seems logical if jurors would be compensated at least as the minimal wage per hour. In small communities it could probably lead to something like 'professional juror' but I think it could be dealt with by monthly/yearly cap for compensation.

I get sufficient pay from my "real job" and vacation time, and never, ever was required to provide military service (or even register for the draft due to my date of birth), so I don't worry about compensation when the jury summons comes.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#409
post #319
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. If I ever go through that system there is no way in hell I am coming out of the prison "reformed". Today when I look at a young kid I feel compassion and I will help the kid in need. After coming out of an US Prison I am likely to see everyone else as "these people were responsible for putting me through hell". That lack of compassion is way more worse. I am not…

Before there was strong for-profit bit in the mix (but it was always there) but the main idea was that rehabilitation is too complicated and doesn't work. Something to the effect of "Oh look we tried, half-hardheartedly, it failed, there is no point wasting time, these people never learn so just lock them up away from the society for as long as possible". That was always going hand in hand with tough-on-crime politic…

> Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them.

All that system is made possible by American society who craps its pants over every minor thing. I will not blame profit seeking companies here but the people.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#410
post #380
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... on a 90-day sentence for basically jaywalking. Can you elaborate?

Sure. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14017760

That is a rough story. I hope things improve for you.

Those who support the war on drugs should think about his point:

>...Was this the outcome society wants me to have? To wreck what small success I struggled to get over what amounted to an illegal search and seizure (that's my PD talking, not me)? Who was the victim of my "crime"? ...

The war on drugs is just a war on people.

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