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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

theatlantic.com

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#401

Having only read part of the article and having gone through toddler years with 2 kids having ADHD and ODD my only insights are: Get good at child psychology the art of manipulation. You're a team against the kids - keep up a united front, regardless of your marital situation. If you don't learn to manipulate those kids into doing what you want, they will very quickly learn to manipulate you into doing what they want…

>> having ADHD and ODD

I strongly suspect that we're looking at the same combination in our son. Sadly I'm reluctant to take my concerns to a medical professional because ODD has a strong correlation with abuse. While I've no doubt that some of my and my wife's parenting has contributed to this, abuse isn't happening -- it's literally been his personality since he could first talk. Still, it's enough to make me uncomfortable going into a situation where that's the assumption[1]

Was yours a medical diagnosis - and if so, did you run into any troubles around that aspect?

> If you're worried about how they dress reflects on you,

This raises an interesting problem though. I find I'm reinforcing societal norms that aren't consistent with my own - because I'm aware that he has to function among peers and adults every day in a social environment. Their reactions to negative behavior aren't enough to prevent him from doing it.

Encouragingly, the couple of situations I've explained that for [in simplified form] have resulted in major improvement (such as using 'inappropriate' language - I personally think it's fine if you know the meanings and usage of the words and when it's ok to use them, regardless of age. After explaining that other adults and parents didn't view it that way, and that it means they won't want him playing with their children and will think poorly of us as a family, that particular problem stopped.)

> Sometimes the easiest path is just relinquishing control of everything inconsequential and only controlling the things that really matter: Don't let them hurt or kill themselves or anyone else and don't let them damage or destroy anything that doesn't belong to them.

This, as a lesson slowly being learned.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#402

I like some of the ideas in this article, but brushing off punishment as ineffective seems short-sighted. For parents with kids who end up at a clinic because of problem behavior, punishment is ineffective. There is a selection bias going on here. Punishment, as noted in the article, is the first go-to for most parents. In situations where that works, they don't end up at a clinic for problem behavior. If the first g…

I agree that punishment sometimes has to be used. But I think the reason why they emphasized why it didn't work, is because punishment is the go to tool for parents almost no matter what you tell them. Despite know all this advice I easily fall into the trap myself, and I see clearly how inefficient it usually is.

Punishment is often the simple way out when you are too tired to really put the effort into doing it the proper way. Making sure you observe proper behavior and complement on that requires more effort. If I got a good amount of energy I am also usually able to convince my child to go with what I want them to without shouting, or threaten with punishment. But that often requires more imagination and when you are tired and worn out, there is no energy left to be imaginative.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#403
post #384
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bluejekyll really should have said disorder. If you have a kid who is getting bad grades in school and has behavioral issues, and the underlying cause of it is ADHD, then no amount of physical discipline, even up to child abuse like closed fist punches, throwing metal chairs, screaming at the top of your lungs while doing it, etc, is going to fix that. All it will do is breed resentment. And if you want to have a rel…

> then no amount of physical discipline, even up to child abuse All physical discipline is child abuse. That's why it's illegal in most of Europe.

The obvious exploitation vector is deliberately pissing you off to make you feel guilty and lose confidence. I think my father used to be like you for the first two years or so, then he grew up :)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#404

> Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s behavior. Instead, he advocates for a radical technique in which parents positively reinforce the behavior they do want to see until the negative behavior eventually goes away. We adopted a puppy a little more than a year ago and this was the exact advice we were given for how to train her. Puppies and little kids are remarkably similar, and the k…

> the key to training a dog is not to "punish" them when they do something wrong

And yet getting caught in the act of doing something wrong and being "punished" (harsh words in the case of a dog) is remarkable effective, particularly in combination with positive reinforcement for the things done well.

> We adopted a puppy a little more than a year ago and this was the exact advice we were given for how to train her

This works remarkably well until you have a dog for which it doesn't work. We've adopted several dogs - some as puppies, some grown - and found that most of the time, for most of the animals, these practices work. But sometimes -and for some dogs - they don't work at all, or with greatly reduced effectiveness.

It depends on what drives the dog and that dog's personality.

> Our baby is only six months old so we'll have to report back in a decade as to whether this approach works well with kids too. :)

Yes. And no. It depends entirely on the personality of your child - and to a limited extent, your own. That's the frustrating thing about these kinds of articles (as well as dog training articles). They position themselves with such authority that we seem to be expected to believe that they're handing down a Great Universal Truth*.

It's not. In my opinion, there is only one - living things (dog or child) are complicated creatures. There are so many variables unique to each living thing in your care that there's not much room left for The One True Way.

[1] My favorite of these is a popular dog trainer who - with all sincerity - says that when you pull on a dog's collar, the dog will pull back because it's physics. The dog must provide an equal and opposite reaction. It's amazing how many people buy into the rationale. What the trainer advocates is perfectly fine in many cases - but I can't get past the pseudo-scientific non-logic.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#405

How you modify your children's behavior is beside the point, IMO. What's really important is whether the modification is in the child's best interest, or merely convenient or beneficial to the parent. Some folks get it and won't fuck up their kids too badly, even with bad technique. Others don't and will do lasting harm, even without using abusive techniques to get compliance.

Good point. My dad with his behavior might have gotten me and my brother to behave. But the problem is that it permanently destroyed his relationship with us and caused issues for us later in life. I do keep in touch with my dad and care about him but I can never really be close to him because of they way he has always acted.

I think people have to realize that kids also have to be kids. One can't expect them to be as quiet and well behaved as grown ups. I am very much against the popularity of French child raising as it seems to frequently create subdued children, who can sit quiet at the restaurant but who has lost the spark.

I remember some fellow Norwegians married into a french family comment on how when they were at a park the Norwegian kids ran around and had fun and the French kids looked at dumbfound with: You can do that?! Can we do that as well?

I assume this is not the average behavior. Or I hope, but I think it gives an idea of how you don't want your kids to end up.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#406
Many interesting comments here. I think to a large part I came to the conclusions in this article myself by trial and error. I agree as someone said here that you have to really become a student of your child. Don't just try the same old rubbish that doesn't work. Try other approaches and make mental notes of what works.

I don't naturally get angry, so I simulated anger just to see if it worked. My experience is that anger and scolding sort of kind of works but is very inefficient and often has diminishing returns. You reach a point where simply getting more angry doesn't work. Quite the opposite it just makes things worse.

I was positively surprised by how much more efficient positive reinforcement was. Just a little bit could often create a lot bigger change than lots of screaming and shouting could produce.

The problem is that it is often far more complicated to do. It requires more thinking, because it is not always obvious what the opposite of the bad behavior is and when you should praise.

E.g. my second child would go ballistic on the changing table. It became almost completely impossible to put him there because he had so many negative associations from being held in place while being changed. I realized I had to make it into a positive experience. My solution was to bring him there when he didn't need clothing or diaper changes and only put him there to do fun things. Gradually I got him to think positively about lying on the changing table, and then I could actually start praising him for complying with getting changed. But just realizing I had to take him there to do something entirely different from what the purpose of the changing table is wasn't obvious to me at first.

So my advice is, try to figure out how you child thinks. A lot of this comes down to having empathy with your child and seeing the world from their perspective. Once you know that you can more effectively employ various best practices.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier To be frank, the article tips are pretty sound and well-accepted, including from specialists who deal with much more difficult children then you and me on a daily basis. First point, there's a tendency to see one's kids as special, be it especially gifted, or difficult, or an astonishing critical thinker for their age. It's quite understandable…

Please humor me, and an honest question. And please be honest. Do you have kids? How many?

I have three boys, ages 10m, 2.5y, and 4.5y. I can confirm that in my case (at least for the two older boys), pretty much all the advice in the article is correct. As I read, I realized that I have been occasioning upon the recommended parenting strategies almost by happenstance.

It's neat to see those specific strategies called out though - I can immediately think back to times when I tried that and realize, "ohhh, so that's why it worked so well." Should help me focus more on those strategies.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#408

Many interesting comments here. I think to a large part I came to the conclusions in this article myself by trial and error. I agree as someone said here that you have to really become a student of your child. Don't just try the same old rubbish that doesn't work. Try other approaches and make mental notes of what works. I don't naturally get angry, so I simulated anger just to see if it worked. My experience is that…

> So my advice is, try to figure out how you child thinks. A lot of this comes down to having empathy with your child and seeing the world from their perspective. Once you know that you can more effectively employ various best practices.

Wow, this is very well put.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#409
As a parent of 3 boys, something the article doesn't mention is that "time out" is very often not used as a punishment, but just as a strategy to help the parent gather their senses.

When you have several kids screaming and breaking things, it's extremely unlikely you'll have the mental capacity to react in a positive healthy manner. Separating the children and doing a 5-minute time out gives just enough time for me to breathe and gather my senses. Then I'm much more likely to follow up with positive parental strategies.

Usually something like, "Oh you stayed in your room quietly for the whole 5 minutes! Great job, I love you so much. Give me a hug. I'm sorry daddy was so stressed and we had to do a time out. Why don't we read a book to help us all feel better?"

That kind of 5-minute break + positive dialog almost always results in a 180 degree change in mood in the house.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think it's also that a dog will also respond differently to a third party (the trainer) than how they respond to the owner with whom they already have a relationship. The owner could use the exact same techniques as the trainer, but the dog will respond differently. Same thing as why organizational change can be more effective when lead by an external change agent than an internal one.

I saw this behavior in speech therapy with my second. He would refuse to vocalize to his mom because he knew she would eventually cave and give him what he wanted, but when the speech therapist withheld a toy until he vocalized, he responded very quickly - likely because he was unsure whether she would cave as mommy does.

This helped us realize that, in this case, we really were the problem. We needed to, in some cases, be more firm. At first this resulted in a lot of tantrums, but once the child's expectations changed then he behaved with us similarly to with his speech therapist.

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