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Microsoft Surface Studio

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Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#401

Post by usaphp »

Ant5do wrote: post #393
usaphp wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "you're paying ~$700 for the actual machine driving that display" ~$700 gets you a pretty basic computer with 965m, you can build a desktop with gtx 1070 for 700$ to power a wacom display. And you will be able to upgrade it in the future, with Studio you are stuck with a 965m for $3000. And if you are getting a 980m for $4200 that leaves you with a $1900 to build a computer for Wacom, which can be way more powerful…

So (449) dollar graphics card, the 1070 + (200) dollar cpu + Case (100) + memory (150) + psupply (70) + mobo (150) + hdd/ssd (150) + Wacom cintiq with Digitizer which is what 2500? + an sRGB monitor at 4k 800? = 4-5000, with a shitty box and shitty experience and you get none of the engineering that went into the product. Plz continue dreaming up dev boxes that only devs could love. Feel free to throw in some glowing…

Wacom Cintiq 27QHD 27": $2300 [1]

Core i7 PC with Gtx 1080: ~$1750 [2]

= $4050 for a much more powerful machine and $150 cheaper + upgradable

[1] - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1113...

[2] - https://pcpartpicker.com/b/f2qkcf

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#402

Post by jack1243star »

criddell wrote: post #385
qihqi wrote: post #335

As a software eng. this is not something I need. I have realized that because computers are designed and programmed by engineers, we had what we need from the very beginning. I am glad that now its designer's turn to get some tools.

The touch input I don't care about, but I definitely want that display. How can anybody that works with text all day not want more pixels and sharper text?

I actually like coding with bitmap fonts very much, which becomes too tiny if shown on a high-dpi screen.

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#403

Post by Analemma_ »

j2bax wrote: post #136
amyjess wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better yet, compare it to the cost of both a Cintiq and a PC. A Cintiq is just a monitor/drawing tablet.

It's not really worth comparing costs until artists weigh in on the drawing capabilities of each piece of hardware. Wacom has had a corner on the market, and a lot of patents for a long time. I know comparisons of Surface Tablet vs. iPad Pro vs. Wacom still have Wacom coming out on top, but a lot of that could be because iPad Pro doesn't have access to the full software artists/designers need to do their job efficien…

At least one artist (the guy from Penny Arcade) says the Surface Studio compares favorably to his Cintiq: http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface...

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#404

Post by int_19h »

ohstopitu wrote: post #259
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Linux subsystem for Windows is really appealing In theory. To anyone who feels that way, please try it out for yourself before making a leap. I thought it would let me develop Ruby on Rails under Windows like I could do on Linux or macOS. I discovered a whole bunch of unimplemented features that prevented this. After a couple of months of commenting on bug reports and watching and trying, I gave up. I'll check…

The biggest issue I have had with their subsystem is that of the file system (NTFS). The fact that I can't have long paths and can't soft link seem ridiculous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be able to loopback-mount a "proper" file system (e.g. ext4) from a file on NTFS, and then you'll have no limits other than what ext4 imposes. Of course, you then lose easy interop with the filesystem from Windows side, but that is the inherent trade-off here.

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#405

Post by CN7R »

usaphp wrote: post #374
atourgates wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value proposition is the responsive touch-screen. The closest responsive touch screen you can buy today is a 27" Wacom Cintiq, which is $2,299 without a computer, and both lower-resolution (2560x1440 vs 4500x3000) and smaller (27" vs 28") than the Surface Studio. So if you assume that about $2,300 of the device's costs go to the display and touch screen, you're paying ~$700 for the actual machine driving that dis…

> "you're paying ~$700 for the actual machine driving that display" ~$700 gets you a pretty basic computer with 965m, you can build a desktop with gtx 1070 for 700$ to power a wacom display. And you will be able to upgrade it in the future, with Studio you are stuck with a 965m for $3000. And if you are getting a 980m for $4200 that leaves you with a $1900 to build a computer for Wacom, which can be way more powerful…

I agree that Microsoft should sell the monitor by itself, or at least allow an eGPU accessory, but it seems they're going to 'Apple route' where they fully control hardware and software.

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#406

Post by int_19h »

ohstopitu wrote: post #391
mwfunk wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NTFS has a functional equivalent to soft links in the form of reparse points, although I don't know to what degree that feature is exposed in the UI, if at all. Last time I looked into it (admittedly, years ago) they could only be created via the command line. Not sure what you mean by "can't have long paths" though, NTFS allows you to programmatically create paths up to 32,767 code points long: https://msdn.microsof…

Windows seems to have a certain hard limit on file path characters (a max of 160) which they seem to have recently removed [0] - So while my point is technically moot it's not enabled by default. As for soft links, a lot of linux tools create soft links (ln -s from to) and generally that fails on NTFS (I tried installing a bunch of npm modules and all had this specific issue)[1]. [0] - https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-26…

It's a max of 260, and it's a Win32 subsystem limitation, not the limitation of NT OS or NTFS file system - and even in Win32 there are escape hatches for it, it's just that you need to know of them and use them explicitly to get such support.

With respect to symlinks - NTFS supports them, but there are subtle semantic differences with POSIX. WSL does actually support symlinks (i.e. you can do ln -s), it's various other behavior around them that breaks, like trying to untar a file that contains symlinks.

The team said that they're working on a custom implementation of symlinks that would provide proper behavior (but wouldn't be seen as a symlink from Win32).

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#407

Post by Analemma_ »

rubber_duck wrote: post #50

Nvidia GTX 9xxM - from what I understand 10xx cards offer the biggest difference in performance generation-to-generation seen in a while on the mobile side - the 10xx mobile versions are basically identical to desktop versions, 9xx are not even close - so why put last gen mobile tech in to a high end professional desktop product ? Especially considering the likelihood of VR proliferation in content creation - I could…

I imagine the protracted development time is at fault. The guy from Penny Arcade wrote a blog post where he said that he tried a prototype a year ago, so presumably this has been in development for at least a year and a half. Probably the 9xx was the best they had at the time and when the 10xx was released they were too far along in development to swap it out. The next one should have it though.

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#409

Post by ewzimm »

usaphp wrote: post #401
Ant5do wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So (449) dollar graphics card, the 1070 + (200) dollar cpu + Case (100) + memory (150) + psupply (70) + mobo (150) + hdd/ssd (150) + Wacom cintiq with Digitizer which is what 2500? + an sRGB monitor at 4k 800? = 4-5000, with a shitty box and shitty experience and you get none of the engineering that went into the product. Plz continue dreaming up dev boxes that only devs could love. Feel free to throw in some glowing…

Wacom Cintiq 27QHD 27": $2300 [1] Core i7 PC with Gtx 1080: ~$1750 [2] = $4050 for a much more powerful machine and $150 cheaper + upgradable [1] - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1113... [2] - https://pcpartpicker.com/b/f2qkcf

That monitor is just under 3.69 billion pixels compared to 13.5 billion on the Surface Studio. It doesn't include the dial interface, the real-life scaling, the pivot mechanism, the color profiles, a lot more. It's probably the closest you can get, but not in the same league.

Re: Microsoft Surface Studio

#410

Post by mhomde »

dcole2929 wrote: post #378
mhomde wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, I think it comes down to if you believe a major actor like Apple/Google/Microsoft can afford to ignore mobile... I think it's too integral with their ecosystem, being present in mobile will bring more business to their other devices... but I can see the other POV as well. Anyways, I'm really glad where they're headed with the Surface Books/Studio. It's been a little slow getting the next generation…

> I think it comes down to if you believe a major actor like Apple/Google/Microsoft can afford to ignore mobile I think it's important to note the distinction that they are seemingly ignoring this generation of mobile. Windows Phone has been a disaster and not for lack of trying on their part. The phones themselves have been mostly solid but it's hard to overcome the ecosystem problem. That said with the moves Micros…

Well, what are you thinking will replace it? We can all imagine glasses/brain plugs/löksoppa but even in our fast-paced world it feels like a paradigm shift away from the mobile factor is 4-5 years away... and an eco system/fan base isn't exactly something you easily kick start from scratch but rather migrate over from previous technology.

I think Windows Phone has been a disaster in many parts, but the actual ideas and UI has actually been one of the bright spots, especially considering iOs is still stuck in an icon springboard paradigm.

For sure it's a bloody fight but I don't think it's a battleground MS can surrender until the next thing comes around

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