Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired • Hacker News Board

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#41

Post by owennoah » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #38

Frondo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see the parent poster's question? I'm curious too, why you do the linking on your site, when you seem to be looking for work, and you suspect it's preventing you from getting it?

I would not want to work for ignorant bigots, and self-identifying is a way to filter out employers who are ignorant and happy to break federal law.

This is a fair point too, at least in as much as job seekers should be screening employers for a variety of things. Not enough job seekers do that. They just say whatever they think will make the employer happy.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#42

Post by owennoah » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

mchaver wrote: post #28

orionblastar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I worked for a law firm for four and a half years. I received pay raises and promotions and had a very good salary. I worked in a team, and debugged Visual BASIC code and ASP VBScript code. Problem was I was picked on and bullied by some members of management and some coworkers and I didn't know why. The work kept piling on, more programs to debug. It used to take months to debug a program to get it right with q…

Would remote work be an option for you? It might be a good option if controlling your work environment is important for you.

To that point, friends of mine have had success with this: http://www.thegrowthlist.com/win-over-30-consulting-offers-i...

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#43

Post by owennoah » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:18 PM UTC

throwawaypsych wrote: post #34

orionblastar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

I was curious how "discrimination" is defined, at least in the dictionary. It is: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things. If someone is mentally ill such that it's obvious to folks around them, and they communicate poorly compared to another candidate who is in other ways equal, then is it discrimination not to hire them? (not saying this description applies to anyone here; I'…

I'm no lawyer but these issues usually fall under "fit"-- which is legal. If there's an email floating around saying, "I think this guy has a mental disorder" and they get sued, yeah there's a case. But it usually never gets that far.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#44

Post by owennoah » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:23 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #37

dsacco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

I think his point is that if someone has cancer and they end up needing to fire them it's going to become an issue for them emotionally. Good, bad or indifferent-- I understand what he's saying, if that is what he is saying.

But Dan's point is well taken: is this what we want to incentivize? A culture of lying and partial disclosure? Now, that doesn't mean 100% disclosure of all things at all times-- people have a right to privacy. But what I think is often lost here is the understanding that when we force everyone to wear masks, we often end up not knowing where the masks end and the real faces begin.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#45

Post by mistermann » Sat, May 09, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #37

dsacco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

> Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness.

Wait, who is the "dishonest liar" in your hypothetical scenario? The person who "might by lying"?

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#46

Post by orionblastar » Sat, May 09, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

owennoah wrote: post #40

whybroke wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not remotely moot. Noah (owennoah) posted some magnificent suggestions to a very serious endemic problem affecting millions of job seekers and hurting employer's ability to find good talent. But the reply to him is a vaguely victim blaming rant pointing out Michael's specific flaws based on subjective impressions of some things seen on the web. A pointless response is bad enough but a destructive one simply bog…

You are both right though. 1) Discrimination is real and should be discouraged and may indeed have affected Michael's chances at finding work but ferreting out discrimination and fixing its isn't a great use of an individual job seekers' time when so many other people can use good workers but 2) if the points about his choosiness are true-- and I don't know if they are-- they would probably affect things as well in a…

There is also this article on him disrupting a hackathon:

http://blog.up.co/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-could-det...

https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/...

Not saying it is true or false, but they show up in a Google search. They could be a factor.

I also found this tweet: https://twitter.com/MisterMarkup/status/196368916501626881

Edit: Added Tweet

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#47

Post by ufmace » Sat, May 09, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

jpg0rd0n wrote: post #27

ufmace wrote: post #10

What I wonder about this idea - it sounds like they started out with a open house for everyone who applied, regardless of qualifications, instead of phone screens. So how many really qualified candidates are going to be interested in travelling out to the company for an "open house" with everyone else who applied for the job? From a candidate's perspective, the phone screen lets you prove yourself to the company and…

> it sounds like they started out with a open house for everyone who applied, regardless of qualifications, instead of phone screens. I understand your point about the phone screen, but found that this is a trade-off. The phone screen was very ineffective for us in letting people know who we are, our size, our location, what we do on a daily basis. The open house format lets the prospective employees see us as we are…

Thanks for the additional details. I suppose the usefulness of this depends a lot on how many positions you're looking to fill, and at what level of skill. It sounds like you're using it to fill multiple entry-level positions, where it makes more sense. I suppose the people there know that there are multiple positions, so don't feel quite so much like they have to compete with everybody else to get hired. And if it's relatively entry-level, then maybe most of the candidates don't have full-time jobs already to be disrupted at, and would appreciate help if they didn't get hired?

I admit that I tend to think of things initially in terms of myself and what I would be looking for, more of a single position for someone with experience and marketable skills, and currently holding a full-time job. There's probably some room for improvement in the process for that too, but I don't think the open house idea would be a good fit.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#48

Post by MichaelCrawford » Sat, May 09, 2015, 8:09 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #36

dsacco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

As I see it, the more people do this, the less discrimination will be acceptable. No, I wouldn't ever personally advise someone to behave this way if they were seeking to further their career. However, if I were to advise humanity in general, I would suggest that we need everyone with such conditions to start doing it in order to force change. It's nearly the same thing as racial discrimination, except that it's base…

Thank You.

It is more important to me that others read my essays on mental illness, than that I get a job.

Edit: But even so, being poor totally sucks.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#49

Post by MichaelCrawford » Sat, May 09, 2015, 8:11 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #38

Frondo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see the parent poster's question? I'm curious too, why you do the linking on your site, when you seem to be looking for work, and you suspect it's preventing you from getting it?

I would not want to work for ignorant bigots, and self-identifying is a way to filter out employers who are ignorant and happy to break federal law.

I denote that kind of thing as a "Bozo Filter".

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#50

Post by BrookeTAllen » Sat, May 09, 2015, 8:12 PM UTC

BROOKE HERE (the guy from the article).

Some thoughts on this discussion…

ON PREJUDICES: Often I don’t get what I want because other people have inaccurate judgments concerning me. But what can I expect; who has the time to really do due diligence. And who am I to judge their judgments of me? If I were a judge at court I’d have to recuse myself because I am way too close to my own case.

This is not to say prejudice doesn’t exist. It does. And it is not to say it isn’t harmful. It is. Prejudice harms us all and the prejudices that harm me the most are my own; they keep me from being all I can be.

When I overlook good candidates because I judge them on irrelevant characteristics then I am constraining my options and that does me no good. Although it would be wonderful if the world was perfect I’ve found it most fruitful to concentrate on the problems closest to me and interestingly they usually involve something about me I could improve upon or resign myself to. I’m happier and more productive when I spend so much time trying to be part of a solution (and not the precipitate) that I don’t have time left over to theorize about what people beyond my influence should be doing.

ON MENTAL DISABILITIES: If you spend any time with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders I’m sure you can find yourself and everyone you know in there. It seems to me that strengths and weaknesses of the mind should be considered only if relevant just as with things in the physical realm. I’m not sure where to draw the line, however I rue the day when sociopaths cannot be discriminated against. In any event, I’ve concluded that life is a terminal spectrum disorder we just have to deal with as best as we can (until we don’t have to any more).

ON SELF-DISCLOSURE: As a practical matter, if you have an obvious disability the best time to bring it up is right before it becomes obvious. For example, if you have a stutter and you ask for forbearance at the beginning of an interview then you can win people’s hearts and they will be rooting for you. But if you don’t then often they cannot wait for the conversation to end. If your disability is not obvious but might require accommodation later on then probably the best time to disclose it is after you get a job offer and before you accept.

If you choose to go public with your issues and make them a cause célèbre then in order to win broad support it will need to be clear that you are doing it for the benefit of people in your circumstances and not just as cover for your own failings. Even then, the recognition you deserve might only come posthumously, but that is irrelevant unless it is recognition that you seek.

PEOPLE I’D LOVE TO HEAR FROM: Although this discussion is interesting I wonder if any of you out there would like my help improving how you hire people. If so, please contact me.

I am retired and don’t need to do this, but I want to. If you are stinking rich I can be expensive and if you’re sincerely broke then I can be free. Either way, you have to tell me who you are. I’m at BrookeAllen.com.