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Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

syriza.net.gr

41–50 of 249 posts

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#41
post #3

What isn't addressed in this letter and most people don't realize is that the Greek debt as an absolute number isn't that big. The real problem is that Greece needs more money to continue operation than it produces, and this fact hasn't changed nor will in the near future. Effectively this makes Greece a black hole for incoming money where incoming money have no actual benefit for anyone other than just keep a near-c…

It's enough that old loans are repaid faster than new ones are taken up. Given that the surplus would otherwise have to be enormous, this is standard procedure for most indebted countries.

The Greek state is such a mess that bankruptcy would be a good thing, in some ways. Greece needs to keep their budget balanced, and it's unclear whether the government is able to implement the necessary changes even if they wanted to and shame or embarrassment has shown itself a poor motivator for the shadow state. In fact, in my opinion default should have happened sooner, while there was still some private debt to default on. Now it's a bit too late, as 80% of Greek debt is held by governments/IMF/ECB.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#42

This one sentence sums up what I think is the fundamental problem: "An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity." That is, the problem isn't some ephemeral panic where people are temporarily unwilling to lend. The problem is there are massive capital losses that have yet to be acknowledged. The problem is that Euro politicians believe that by continuing to bankroll Greece they will s…

I agree with everything you say up to “panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been previously destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works”

In todays fractional banking system where banks only hold a fraction of liquid assets to cover their liabilities, a run on a good bank could still put it under. (Lehman, Bear and others were both illiquid and insolvent, but runs can kill good banks too) This is why the FDIC was put up to guarantee commercial banks. Nothing similar existed to protect investment banks.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#43
post #4

tldr; Instead of taking new loans and servicing our existing debt, we'd like new loans and NOT have to service our existing debt. EDIT: To those responding "he didn't ask for loans" in the last line he's asking for a "European New Deal"... what else could that be besides new loans or a straight-on gifting of more money?

> he's asking for a "European New Deal"... what else could that be besides new loans or a straight-on gifting of more money? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

Yes, I know what the "New Deal" was. If you don't think the "New Deal" involved giving out money (and this probably isn't the place to have that discussion) then certainly you could come to different conclusions about OP.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#44
tl;dr: "This time it's different."

The piece was more persuasive than I thought it would be, and Tsipras' diagnosis of the cause of the problem is dead-on: this is a crisis of insolvency, not illiquidity.

The problem with what Tsipras is asking for is that markets get a vote, too, and the outright forgiveness of Greek debt would cause massive upheaval -- potentially to the point of making the EU itself unsustainable.

I think the only way the Germans will agree to debt forgiveness at meaningful quantums is if Greece leaves the Euro currency union and goes back to the drachma. That would send a powerful message to the financial markets -- "you get one mulligan, and the price of that mulligan is leaving the Eurozone".

Of course, Tsipras doesn't want that. He wants a "European New Deal", the details of which he provides rather sparingly. My guess is that if he were to flesh out these details, Germans would find them not only unreasonable but laughable.

The "wild card" scenario is if SYRIZA undertakes a project of massive wealth confiscation from the Greek elite. That actually might move the needle of German public opinion--one of the biggest points of outrage among the German people over the last 5 years has been the juxtaposition of media coverage of the excesses of wealthy Greeks (and their creative non-payment of taxes) with the math of how much each German family was being asked to give to rescue Greece. Start levying massive one-time luxury taxes on Greek-domiciled assets of Greek citizens (with asset seizures as penalty of non-payment) and maybe you get enough schadenfreude flowing in Germany to meaningfully alter public opinion.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#45
post #36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that they actually speak German in Germany, not English.

Im sure they also speak English quite well.

Indeed they do (and far better than most English-speakers speak any foreign language). My point was that this has been professionally translated from Greek into many languages, beginning with German on January 13 (paywall, sadly). So there is no point in criticising the English of the original Greek author or authors.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#46

The thing that seems to be often missed about the 'Greek bailout'is it wasn't about bailing out Greece, it was more about bailing out the German bankers who'd lent Greece more money than they should have. The Greek people were shafted by the EU, IMF etc. because they didn't want to see the German bankers take the pain. We see a similar problem with the current round of Quantitive Easing that the ECB are undertaking -…

I agree, but on the other hand Greece was taking the loans. It takes two to tango and it's both's fault.

But yeah, QE should go directly and equally to citizens. Everything else is transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#47

This one sentence sums up what I think is the fundamental problem: "An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity." That is, the problem isn't some ephemeral panic where people are temporarily unwilling to lend. The problem is there are massive capital losses that have yet to be acknowledged. The problem is that Euro politicians believe that by continuing to bankroll Greece they will s…

Well, no. The fundamental problem is that Germany has been treating the rest of the EU as an expedient export market while refusing to allow equivalent imports, and at the same time aggressively insisting that countries in the EU should somehow magically not need debt... to continue buying from Germany.

There's also the minor point that this is yet another excuse to indulge the usual neoliberal hatred of social spending and everything else that improves the condition of ordinary people who work for a living.

Germany has a long post-war history of renegotiating or ignoring debt. So crashing the Greek economy by enforcing murderous austerity - literally murderous in its effects, and not hyperbole - is a new peak in self-serving hypocrisy.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#48
post #37
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's only two ways I know of that you can use to "inject" money into a person: You either give it to them as a loan or a gift.

Money doesn't have to go directly to the government. Their plan to fund things is more along the lines of making the many, many tax-evaders actually pay. Businesses that need loans can take them out on an individual basis, injecting money into the economy, but the government can get money from its own people rather than other countries.

Sounds like the same end result to me.

BTW- I'm not disagreeing that giving Greece more money one way or another doesn't make sense, I'm just pointing out that I see nothing in OP where Greece is saying "let us go our own scrappy way without your money, we can fend for ourselves". Instead they want debt forgiveness, followed by more money.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#50
post #8

Sure. I agree that (morally) the EU shouldn't have bailed out Greece. Greece cooked its books and Greek debt holders at the time of the bail out were suffering the consequences of lending to a fiscally irresponsible state. That being said, the world was uncertain as to how much economic damage had yet to be done, and by shoring up Greece it assuaged investor confidence across the western world. Personally I think tha…

What I don't understand about this type of logic is the refusal to acknowledge the damage being done by the forced depression. It's like a 19th century leech therapy, keep sucking out blood until they get better. If Greece's economy is allowed to recover everybody will be better off, the banks, the politics, the people living in Greece and even the German taxpayer.
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