Is the World Making You Sick? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#41

Post by enziobodoni » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

enziobodoni wrote: post #38

claar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this was pretty much my opinion. But then my wife got sick. Spent 5 years with myriads of specialists, who all did their testings, and threw their hands up in the air. So guess where we eventually land, when traditional medicine gets us no where? Within months of removing these effect-less "toxins" from her diet, I have a wife back. So believe what you want -- I'd do the same if it hadn't radically effected my o…

It is devilishly difficult to separate correlation and causation. This difficulty has to be the reason why some forms of "medicine" persist, ie naturopathy will have to work sometime, just as a stopped watch is right twice a day. I would never be so foolish as to discount your story, however, without knowing the actual facts, and without acknowledging that some people do, in fact, have food allergies, celiac sprue, e…

I think I might have missed what I meant to say. Can we be sure that is wasn't a self-limited condition that resolved at he same time as the dietary changes, but not because of them? That kind of thing happens a lot. People get over strep throat without penicillin, after all.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#42

Post by zenkat » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:02 PM UTC

claar wrote: post #16

enziobodoni wrote: post #13

I run a hospital lab, and I see requests for testing for all sorts of bizarre things, largely by naturopaths, deriving from the "philosophy" expressed here. We refer to people who believe this stuff as being on the "Quest for Purity", a quixotic drive to remove all "toxins" from their bodies. Regardless of whether or not there are substantiated examples of low doses of chemicals causing effects, the worry about this…

Yep, this was pretty much my opinion. But then my wife got sick. Spent 5 years with myriads of specialists, who all did their testings, and threw their hands up in the air. So guess where we eventually land, when traditional medicine gets us no where? Within months of removing these effect-less "toxins" from her diet, I have a wife back. So believe what you want -- I'd do the same if it hadn't radically effected my o…

My wife has nearly the same story. Complaints of fatigue, nausea, cognitive difficulties (feeling spacey, fuzzy-headed). Tried a radical elimination diet, and then reintroduced different dietary components one-by-one to see which we're causing the symptoms. Dairy and soy products were the worst, along with products containing yeast extract. Gluten also had an effect, but not as strong. She's cut these from her diet, and feels much better.

Both of us have a background in the biological sciences (she has a PhD in Biochemistry from Washington University), and we both have a skeptical mindset. Neither of us are particularly susceptible to "woo". But the evidence is clear -- these foods make her very ill, and avoiding them makes her feel much better.

The clincher for me were the inadvertent double-blind experiments that we occasionally run when she eats something without checking the label first. All sorts of foods contain dairy, soy, or yeast extract, so it's very easy to make a mistake. Nothing drives the point home like watching your wife hurl by the side of the road after a snack -- and then checking the label on the salami she just ate, only to find it contains "nonfat dry milk solids". It's hard to remain skeptical after that has happened a dozen times.

We are still puzzled by the etiology of the disease. It seems like there is an immunological component (she also has asthma and hives, both of which flare up when she eats these foods), but she doesn't test as "allergic" in standard tests. I'm a bit skeptical of the low-level exposure hypothesis in this article (hard to test, hard to treat). However, the connections to the limbic system hinted at in this article are an interesting lead. The immune system can be affected by the nervous system, and I could see the olfactory system becoming sensitized after "learning" a correlation between a chemical and nausea, etc ... but these are just musings at this point.

Anyone know of good research along these lines?

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#43

Post by zenkat » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

enziobodoni wrote: post #38

claar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this was pretty much my opinion. But then my wife got sick. Spent 5 years with myriads of specialists, who all did their testings, and threw their hands up in the air. So guess where we eventually land, when traditional medicine gets us no where? Within months of removing these effect-less "toxins" from her diet, I have a wife back. So believe what you want -- I'd do the same if it hadn't radically effected my o…

It is devilishly difficult to separate correlation and causation. This difficulty has to be the reason why some forms of "medicine" persist, ie naturopathy will have to work sometime, just as a stopped watch is right twice a day. I would never be so foolish as to discount your story, however, without knowing the actual facts, and without acknowledging that some people do, in fact, have food allergies, celiac sprue, e…

Double-blind experiments are a great way to separate correlation and causation. See my (@zenkat's) wife's story above. Every so often, she accidentally and unknowingly eats foods she is sensitive to, and exhibits symptoms shortly afterwards. We go back and check the label and ... yep, there's the dairy/soy/yeast extract.

Oh, and there's no financially motivated third-parties here. We've done all this testing, elimination, and observation on our own.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#44

Post by lukifer » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

o_____________o wrote: post #35

lukifer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: given the incredible variety of chemical compounds in nature, if one wants to describe specifically those that are directly harmful to health, or that trigger an immune response in some persons, what is the optimal umbrella term? ("Toxin" is every bit as overloaded and fuzzy as "chemical" in common parlance.)

That's the problem, isn't it? What is directly harmful to health? Beyond those agents we've universally codified as people poison, "harmful" is a constantly shifting designation that will always be misappropriated by those with a cross to bear over their pet subject. Health is such a complex, nuanced subject that its hard to imagine anything different than the messy passions we're describing.

That doesn't address the question. To most people, peanuts aren't harmful, but a small number of people can die due to exposure. A laundry detergent with no effect on most people may cause some to break out in hives. What do you call these substances, whether natural or man-made?

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#45

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #4

> There are several types of proof. Nick Ashford and I observed the same patterns of inexplicable new-onset intolerances across very different toxic exposures in over a dozen countries. Sheep dippers using organophosphate pesticides in rural areas of Europe, radiology workers inhaling chemicals while developing films in New Zealand, Gulf War veterans, EPA workers in a remodeled and poorly ventilated office building i…

It's at least conceivable that chronic exposure to a chemical that isn't being properly removed could cause eventual sensitization. With the "bath salts" phenomenon, there were stories posted to HN of certain compounds acting similarly to known stimulants, but that certain people never came down from due to the molecules getting stuck in whatever receptor they targeted.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#46

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:41 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #3

There is room for improvement in the modern world. But you know what could be making us sick in our everyday lives? Cholera. Makes bpa a little less scary after all.

Let's not resort to the appeal to worse problems as a reason to give up on solving problems closer to home.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#47

Post by jpmattia » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

enziobodoni wrote: post #40

jpmattia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I see requests for testing for all sorts of bizarre things It would be interesting: Can you list a bunch?

Micronutrients, even in hair. Trace metals, especially after chelation therapy, when the results are definitely misleading. Labs that associate Candida with everything. "Stealth" virus testing. Quack Lyme disease serology labs that always give positive results. Anti-malignin antibodies. Multi variate index assays predicting irritable bowel disease. IgG food allergies. Outrageously large (>50-100 component) IgE allerg…

A bit of a wild guess, but many of those look like self-diagnosing or "fringe" from folks dealing with autoimmunity issues. Is that right?

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#48

Post by disputin » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #4

> There are several types of proof. Nick Ashford and I observed the same patterns of inexplicable new-onset intolerances across very different toxic exposures in over a dozen countries. Sheep dippers using organophosphate pesticides in rural areas of Europe, radiology workers inhaling chemicals while developing films in New Zealand, Gulf War veterans, EPA workers in a remodeled and poorly ventilated office building i…

Not even industrial chemicals - colgate plax mouthwash causes my tongue to develop weird flat patches within a day of a single use. Takes two weeks to clear up. There was a Bloomberg article not too long ago about them using, iirc, triclosan in their Total toothpaste, which is considered dodgy by many. This chemical soup experimentation is way too close to home for me.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#49

Post by xorcist » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 7:03 PM UTC

zenkat wrote: post #43

enziobodoni wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is devilishly difficult to separate correlation and causation. This difficulty has to be the reason why some forms of "medicine" persist, ie naturopathy will have to work sometime, just as a stopped watch is right twice a day. I would never be so foolish as to discount your story, however, without knowing the actual facts, and without acknowledging that some people do, in fact, have food allergies, celiac sprue, e…

Double-blind experiments are a great way to separate correlation and causation. See my (@zenkat's) wife's story above. Every so often, she accidentally and unknowingly eats foods she is sensitive to, and exhibits symptoms shortly afterwards. We go back and check the label and ... yep, there's the dairy/soy/yeast extract. Oh, and there's no financially motivated third-parties here. We've done all this testing, elimina…

That's not a double blind experiment. I don't even know how to qualify it unless you at least have some data on how often those things the unknowingly eats that contains whatever she is sensitive against does not exhibit any reactions in her.

Re: Is the World Making You Sick?

#50

Post by enziobodoni » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 7:07 PM UTC

zenkat wrote: post #43

enziobodoni wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is devilishly difficult to separate correlation and causation. This difficulty has to be the reason why some forms of "medicine" persist, ie naturopathy will have to work sometime, just as a stopped watch is right twice a day. I would never be so foolish as to discount your story, however, without knowing the actual facts, and without acknowledging that some people do, in fact, have food allergies, celiac sprue, e…

Double-blind experiments are a great way to separate correlation and causation. See my (@zenkat's) wife's story above. Every so often, she accidentally and unknowingly eats foods she is sensitive to, and exhibits symptoms shortly afterwards. We go back and check the label and ... yep, there's the dairy/soy/yeast extract. Oh, and there's no financially motivated third-parties here. We've done all this testing, elimina…

That's not a double blind experiment, but I'd agree it points to an intolerance. Actual experiments, I will reiterate, are hard to do. Have you tried feeding your wife food devoid of known triggers but told her they were in the food? I would hope not, because it's not an ethical thing to do, but you need that sort of thing to nail it down. Also, since she seems to accidentally eat food of unknown provenance, can you be sure the times she's gotten away with it without symptoms that the food in question was truly devoid of triggers? In others words, it is very very easy to confirm that things are bad for you, correctly or not.