The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom • Hacker News Board

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#41

Post by pizza » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:10 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #30

pizza wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But really, with the way standardized tests are done now, can you even tell what kids have learned with a test? By which I mean, when kids can't memorize all the stuff that they have learned by heart, and then when they can't produce an exact replica of a procedure or something without some kind of reference, we equate it to their not having learned it in the first place. Programmers create docs for the purpose of re…

What kind of standard test would you suggest that would determine if a student learned anything? BTW, you can't get a license to practice medicine without passing a standardized test.

Fair enough about the medical practice thing, and I suppose that in a many-life-critical context like becoming a doctor or lawyer you would prefer to have a very low false-positive rate coupled with a high false-negative rate.

I can't help but feel that the problem lies in a fatal combination of non-filtering teacher training (as sentimented by "oh, anyone can teach", and as mentioned by that recent Finnish education post), community culture that talks more than acts about the importance of high quality education and self-motivation, and a lack of funding for those (like OP) who give it their all.

edit: I also think that we should encourage a sense of trusting (maybe government-trained) educators with being able to identify which children in their class need to learn what, better than a test could. I'm not so sure what the benefit is to ignoring the individuals at the 'dx' scale of the educational calculus.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#42

Post by analog31 » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:11 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #23

waynemr wrote: post #9

The sad and infuriating thing is that good teachers leaving public service is precisely what conservative groups strive for, in their "starve the beast" agendas. As more quality staff leave, they [conservative groups] can claim greater and greater failures in the public system and siphon more tax dollars into private voucher schools.

For those of us not from the US, which [conservative groups] are you talking about? Republicans in general? Or some other group?

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them." -- Jerry Falwell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#43

Post by wtallis » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:12 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #22

w1ntermute wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the problem is community, why not take the students/families who really do care (from all the schools in a metropolitan area) and put them all in the same school? That would at least be a start.

All the uninterested parents would become really interested around selection time trying to get their kids into the 'best' schools. As soon as the choice is made, however, they'd be back to indifference. School is viewed as delegating responsibility from parent to teacher. In England there have been so-silly-its-staggering stories of anti-terror legislation being used to spy on parents suspected of lying about their…

And the worst thing is that to a limited extent, the caring-only-at-registration strategy does help that family some, because their kids will at least be in a functional learning environment for part of the day. It only falls apart when the families that care get diluted enough that the teachers have to spend too much time dragging along the unengaged students.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#44

Post by tlrobinson » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:15 AM UTC

blakeja wrote: post #17

tlrobinson wrote: post #6

More like "Waynesboro Rotary Club Teacher of the Year"? Looks like this is blogspam with a linkbaity title. Original was "The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom": http://iamjwal.com/the-tough-decision-to-leave-the-classroom...

BS, link bait / blogspam are any one of the numerous nautil.us or medium.com articles that seem to consistently make it onto the front page of hackernews. Whereas, this article reflects the same sentiments I have been hearing from close friends over the past years who are public school teachers. And it boils down to two facts that I have taken particular note of after listening to their grievances: 1. Government inte…

I wasn't referring to the content of the article, just the fact that schoolleadership20.com seems to have ripped off the original article and added a linkbaity headline.

i.e. blogspam

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#45

Post by pizza » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:15 AM UTC

kodreaming wrote: post #40

jurassic wrote: post #29

No raises in six years as inflation marches steadily on is a 10% paycut. Criminal. It's a disgrace that our college-educated professional teachers are so under-valued they have to take on multiple side-jobs just to maintain their economic status quo.

College-educated means nothing unless you are talking about Africa. With all due respect, people got into education is not really the brightest bunch...

Say all you want about a hypothetical person's intellect, but there's no doubt that college education debt is dangerous to all career paths selected other than by salary. (And the comment about African students/scholarships is no less patronizing just because it's simultaneously mocking American teachers..)

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#46

Post by hueving » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:16 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #23

waynemr wrote: post #9

The sad and infuriating thing is that good teachers leaving public service is precisely what conservative groups strive for, in their "starve the beast" agendas. As more quality staff leave, they [conservative groups] can claim greater and greater failures in the public system and siphon more tax dollars into private voucher schools.

For those of us not from the US, which [conservative groups] are you talking about? Republicans in general? Or some other group?

Anti-government conservatives. Republicans in general fall into this category.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#47

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:19 AM UTC

blakeja wrote: post #17

tlrobinson wrote: post #6

More like "Waynesboro Rotary Club Teacher of the Year"? Looks like this is blogspam with a linkbaity title. Original was "The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom": http://iamjwal.com/the-tough-decision-to-leave-the-classroom...

BS, link bait / blogspam are any one of the numerous nautil.us or medium.com articles that seem to consistently make it onto the front page of hackernews. Whereas, this article reflects the same sentiments I have been hearing from close friends over the past years who are public school teachers. And it boils down to two facts that I have taken particular note of after listening to their grievances: 1. Government inte…

[deleted]

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#48

Post by pizza » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:19 AM UTC

animex wrote: post #28

Maybe do some job research before getting an education degree in the US. I think most teachers would have told you it's pretty shitty in general. In Canada, teachers make more than most software developers, ~90k/yr. Still, much of the same bureaucracy exists here as well.

No teacher deserves a shitty system because they didn't 'do their research' beforehand (which they are 110% aware of while starting their career in education).

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#49

Post by scornwell » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:19 AM UTC

I don't think there is another profession who's need is so widely advocated for, yet so pathetically enticed. Put some money on education, make it a desirable job, and then watch the world change as talented people try for those positions. Now, just figure out how to get the money committed to education instead of people giving RollsRoyce, Bentley, Ferrari, etc their best years ever.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#50

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 7:22 AM UTC

pizza wrote: post #27

WalterBright wrote: post #20

> SOL tests are inherently unfair, I regularly see claims that tests are at odds with learning. What I don't understand is how anyone can tell what kids have learned without some sort of test.

But really, with the way standardized tests are done now, can you even tell what kids have learned with a test? By which I mean, when kids can't memorize all the stuff that they have learned by heart, and then when they can't produce an exact replica of a procedure or something without some kind of reference, we equate it to their not having learned it in the first place. Programmers create docs for the purpose of re…

Well, some things people should remember - how to calculate the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle, or who the parties were in WW2, or what makes a metaphor different from a simile.

But you can also give problems, like 'here are the dimensions of some real-world problem, and here's a formula used to solve such problems, apply one to the other'; or 'here's the text of a poem by so-and-so, explain what you think the poet means and support your arguments with reference to the text.'

I know essay answers take longer to evaluate and are harder to score, but I get the impression that way too much of k-12 educational testing involves multiple-choice questionnaires.