World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
41–50 of 65 posts
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#42It did.
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I made a point to tell barrkel that I hadn't met him and that I wasn't intending my remarks personally. I don't feel comfortable judging somebody by what they write online. The friends I'm most in touch with from my hometown are gamers. By some standards I'm a gamer, though I'd disagree with the classification. So obviously I don't mean "everybody that plays games" when I refer to the "gaming community". That said: I…
After reading you carefully, I believe you have a fundamental problem in your understanding of the world, and in particular, how economics works. Things don't have intrinsic value in and of themselves. The fact that something has had "$10,000 of their own money and countless months" invested in it does not mean that the end product is valuable. You appear to be subscribing to the labour theory of value here; it's lik…
What I find funny is that you chide me for assigning things an intrinsic value, and then go right ahead and try to assign a formula for value based on time played/money. You're doing exactly what you accused me of. And you're being far snottier about it than I am, which is also kind of funny, because I'm the one being the snob here.
See, unlike you, I don't assign any monetary value to time. I don't divide twenty by six or a thousand by ninety to decide if something's been worth it. That's stupid, all due respect. I don't divide the hours I wear a shirt by the money I paid for it either. Instead, I value the experience of that time spent. I'll take six hours of unique, novel gameplay with gorgeous graphics and good music to a thousand hours looking at generic FPS, listening to generic FPS sound, playing what amounts to fairly generic gameplay. What I liked about Half-Life 2, actually, that made it worth my time, was that it had so many elements of gameplay merge into a fairly simple control set. Valve's flawed in a lot of ways, but when I spend time on their stuff they give me an experience.
I mentioned the time and money those developers spent not because I think it makes their game more valuable, but because I empathize with them and with what they made. If we want to use another bullshit metric, 6hrs/2ppl = 3, whereas 1000hrs/550ppl = less than two, not to mention we're talking two games that cost obscene amounts of time/money to provide. So those two people are producing more than those 550, with less money spent.
"Less money spent", that's another issue. See, I can't sympathize with your twenty dollars. It's twenty dollars. If you're cheap enough to regret a twenty dollar purchase, I think you're being kind of whiny. But what I can't stand are those games that take millions of dollars to make, but don't have any sort of ingenuity behind them. I think that's a horrible, horrible waste. Can't stand games that lack ingenuity. So for me, Far Cry is yet another disaster of a game, and World of Goo, while imperfect, is a small little gem. And that's why it offends me that the sort of person who would spend a thousand hours shooting pixels would hate on a title with an inventive physics system, especially when it was made both with money that wasn't that much on a huge scale but was a lot to the two people that had to spend it. In the case of Ubisoft, you have the opposite case: A hell of a lot of money burnt up because it really didn't matter much to the people who had to spend it.
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
The desire that's built in is the online tower building. But I don't do it for that. I do it for the thrill of seeing how efficiently I can make my pieces. The graphics are beautiful. The soundtrack is incredible. The humor is perfectly executed. The feel of the controls I hope to one day equal. The physics engine's to die for. I don't know you, barrkel, so hopefully you don't take it personally when I say: You'd val…
Yes, two dollars, when compared with the value I get out of a decent FPS. It's funny you mention the orange box; Portal is another puzzle game, and similarly not particularly replayable after solving it, which similarly takes about 6 hours. And as for Half-Life 2, Ep 1 and 2, these are some of my least favourite FPSes because they are obsessively linear and don't reward creative approaches. For these reasons, they ar…
The key word in that sentence is "decent", and I don't think it's the word you wanted.
Games like Far Cry, TF2, etc., are outliers, they're not "a decent FPS". I doubt you'd be willing to pay full price for a "decent" FPS, if you value World of Goo at $2.
It's interesting how skewed the perception of value can become due to AAA titles with huge budgets. Yes, in some ways these games ARE underpriced, and forcing a race to the bottom. You get silly situations like people paying $40 for L4D and playing it for hundreds of hours, while still complaining about the lack of content. The only conceivable scenario under which L4D is bad value is if you compare it to, say, TF2 - which is receiving ridiculous amounts of free content upgrades, in my opinion.
If you set your "baseline" for value to something like TF2 or Starcraft, then work downwards from there for all other games, then where does that leave the rest of the industry?
If you use that baseline, is WoW worth the $15 a month that millions of people happily pay?
Or, if you work the other way - if WoW IS worth $15 a month, which many people obviously agree - then doesn't that bring Far Cry closer to hundreds of dollars of "value"?
I'm not talking about what specific games you or I enjoy - I'm trying to play along with extracting some abstract "value", regardless of genre. My only conclusion is that you can't really do that - bad games are vastly overpriced, good games are vastly underpriced, and the only ones that get the pricing right are MMOs.
In my opinion, $20 for World of Goo is about right, assuming you enjoy that kind of game. It's short, but intensely enjoyable. I'd rather have 6 hours of excellent, memorable gameplay than dozens of hours of mediocre gameplay.
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#45Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, two dollars, when compared with the value I get out of a decent FPS. It's funny you mention the orange box; Portal is another puzzle game, and similarly not particularly replayable after solving it, which similarly takes about 6 hours. And as for Half-Life 2, Ep 1 and 2, these are some of my least favourite FPSes because they are obsessively linear and don't reward creative approaches. For these reasons, they ar…
Yes, two dollars, when compared with the value I get out of a decent FPS. The key word in that sentence is "decent", and I don't think it's the word you wanted. Games like Far Cry, TF2, etc., are outliers, they're not "a decent FPS". I doubt you'd be willing to pay full price for a "decent" FPS, if you value World of Goo at $2. It's interesting how skewed the perception of value can become due to AAA titles with huge…
For comparison, a game that is not particularly AAA (certainly not by today's standards) would be something like Civ 2; this is another decent game that has huge replay value. If WoG had replay value similar to it, then I would have really gotten my money's worth, from my perspective.
But then you go on to make a rather odd argument, which seems to me to be moral in nature, suggesting that I should feel bad because I like getting lots of stuff for very little cost. Well I'm sorry, I don't see it that way; the key advantage of software in a global economy is that marginal cost is tiny, so excellent content should be cheap.
And the experiences I've gotten out of games like Far Cry, Thief, Civ 2, etc., have been infinitely more memorable than the gameplay I've had from WoG.
Thief: once, when looting a room, I was surprised to hear a guard say "what's going on here then", and I was just able to avoid detection by nipping into the shadow behind a pillar. When I was playing it, it affected me so deeply I walked down the street differently after sundown.
Far Cry: the experience of coming out of the cave where you wake up, and into the lush Pacific island environment, was amazing; one of the first things I did after I got my hands on my first jeep was drive through at relatively high speed past most of the mercs on that first level, all the way to cliff looking towards the aircraft carrier, and jumping out at the last moment, and watching my jeep sail over, crash and explode at the bottom. It was cinematic, unscripted, and I was in control.
Civ 2: Well, every time I get into that game, and I can still get into it now over a decade later, I build a country that becomes part of me, the names and locations of the cities familiar. It becomes my own territory, a place I feel at home.
WoG: it's a puzzle game, it's a bit like those ad-sponsored flash timewasters, only drawn out and developed a bit more. But I just don't see it as being particularly valuable. Sorry for feeling happy about having that judgement.
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
After reading you carefully, I believe you have a fundamental problem in your understanding of the world, and in particular, how economics works. Things don't have intrinsic value in and of themselves. The fact that something has had "$10,000 of their own money and countless months" invested in it does not mean that the end product is valuable. You appear to be subscribing to the labour theory of value here; it's lik…
Reading comments on Hacker News isn't "reading carefully". We're operating on a pretty shallow level of conversation right now. What I find funny is that you chide me for assigning things an intrinsic value, and then go right ahead and try to assign a formula for value based on time played/money. You're doing exactly what you accused me of. And you're being far snottier about it than I am, which is also kind of funny…
* The worth of something to an individual isn't an intrinsic value; it's either a use value (they'll consume it) or an exchange value (they'll buy it, and perhaps sell it at some other point).
* I don't assign monetary value to my time out of habit, but sometimes quantitative tools are useful for analysing decisions. That's how economics works: it's about analysing choice.
* You persist in talking about generic FPSes. I am specifically not talking about generic FPSes.
* You can empathise with one group of developers all you like, but I can guarantee you there are lots more, and larger, groups of developers elsewhere that you are explicitly choosing not to empathise with. It sounds like you're making a moral argument, but I would posit that the utilitarian balance of your position is unsound.
* I'm cheap enough to regret mistakes, because if you don't regret mistakes, you won't learn from them, and you'll end up losing far more than $20.
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#48Has anyone been able to download the game?
Re: World of Goo does a Radiohead. Pay whatever you like.
#49There is a huge difference between giving away a year-old product and giving away a brand new, never-been-sold-before one. Let me explain. Radiohead took a -huge- risk by releasing an album, out the door, right at the start, with a "pay what you want" pricing model. 2dboy is taking -no- risk by releasing World of Goo with a "pay what you want" pricing model. They are already on the tail end of the demand curve at the…
I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted - you bring up valid points. This is similar to price discrimination. You can initially offer your product at $20 and sell to whoever is willing to pay at that time. Then you lower it to $10 and sell to whoever is willing to pay at that time. And so forth. The major difference is that the customer is determining the price they are willing to pay rather than the manufacturer.…
I think you should be more explicit in step two.
http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/then-a-mira...