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Shall we fork Debian?

debianfork.org

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41–50 of 284 posts

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#41

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

buster wrote: post #28

Or just shut up and put your efforts into maintaining https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim Also, critique starts with "We like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable".. How on earth is a systemd service file less readable then a hundreds of lines bash script? Also relevant: http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65684-deb...

It would be nice for those of us not in the know to see an example of more-or-less similar configuration expressed in the respective systems for comparison. Although I tend philosophically towards the declarative route, I don't really have a good understanding of the issues involved in this specific instance - but I'd like to.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#42

Post by pantalaimon »

> Thanks for doing this. How can I help?

> […] it can be helpful to monitor and update the Wikipedia page about SystemD.

So they are basically suggesting to manipulate Wikipedia in order to paint a worse picture of systemd?

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#43

Post by buster »

fapjacks wrote: post #33
buster wrote: post #28

Or just shut up and put your efforts into maintaining https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim Also, critique starts with "We like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable".. How on earth is a systemd service file less readable then a hundreds of lines bash script? Also relevant: http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65684-deb...

Your attitude is exactly the problem. "Shut up and do what I say" is exactly what systemd is about.

This sentence (if it's not obvious) is a hint to invest energies into making debian work fine without systemd instead of countless whining and crying but in the end doing nothing.

There may be some people opposed to systemd, but there have been votes that saw systemd as the clear winner for the default init system. Why should the majority of users who are FOR systemd bending to some users who don't like systemd out of some philosophical view? Instead of behaving like a little child, people can work on letting Debian run fine without systemd (which IS the fact today, i can simply switch between sysvinit and systemd just by installing a package).

And in the end, you should remind yourself that this is only about the default for one linux distribution. You will still be able to use sysvinit if you like. There is choice. The majority wants systemd. The minority wants sysvinit. Only because the opposers are loud and make a lot of noise about this doesn't change the fact that they are a relatively small number. Changing the default is the only sane thing to do.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#45

Post by TheSwordsman »

0x006A wrote: post #30
23david wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decoupling systemd is a feature desired by system administrators, who are responsible for installing and managing most debian and debian-based distros.

on the contrary, systemd is a feature desired by system administrators, who are responsible for installing and managing most debian and debian-based distros.

As someone who manages a large Debuntu fleet, please don't speak on my behalf. If I had the opportunity to vote for systemd it would have been 'no'.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#46

Post by TheSwordsman »

justincormack wrote: post #25
DoubleMalt wrote: post #23

Just use coreOS and docker on the server and leave the init system discussion to the desktop people. There are some fundamentally different and sometimes conflicting requirements regarding the startup process on a server and on a desktop machine and I think systemd which is obviously desktop driven will be the catalyst for a split between server and desktop distros. I don't think classical desktop environments have m…

CoreOS is entirely based on systemd. Fleet is a distributed systemd. It is far more systemd oriented than any other distro, having built it in as a core feature form day one.

Which makes using any useful features of the project impossible.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#47

Post by _ak »

jermo wrote: post #2

The main reason for forking seems to be opposition to SystemD. Initially I was unconvinced but then I remembered the recent story of Lennart Poettering (one of the authors of SystemD) on The State Of Open Source Communities where he describes the hostility towards him personally https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8414859 In light of that, forking is a more civilised approach than bullying and threatening the author…

Lennart Poettering is a bully himself, with a well-documented instance where he continuously interruped a talk at the 27th Chaos Communication Congress, even going as far as taking over the stage while insulting the presenter. Lennart Poettering is a toxic person, toxic to the OSS community, and he's the last person that can complain about bullying.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#48

Post by zokier »

Sure, feel free to fork Debian. Just don't call your fork Debian or "Pure Debian" or anything silly like that. Debian is a registered trademark of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., and as we saw with the Standard Markdown debacle, people do not like when names of established stuff is hijacked.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#49

Post by icebraining »

justincormack wrote: post #24
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #18

No. Even the pro-fork advocates (even the above article) see the Jackson / Vernon proposal as a much better idea (choice of init systems with a systemd default) No. IMHO Debian is less a distro than a democratic experiment - and systemd shows it is working. If you don't like systemd (and I vastly prefer my FreeBSD world) get on board with the democratic process - it is always messy, frustrating, driving you insane sl…

But isnt that proposal kind of too late, the process has already chosen systemd?

systemd has been chosen as the default, but there's a proposal to keep Debian open to other init systems: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00001.html

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#50

Post by JetSpiegel »

yxhuvud wrote: post #29
qznc wrote: post #5

How does forking Debian solve anything? The issue is that Gnome, KDE, and other software requires systemd. You need to fix/maintain their compatibility with other init systems. Then it is easy for Debian user to switch init systems.

You can also chose to ditch them and not support anything that requires systemd. Yes, really.

Good luck getting any adoption that keeps maintainers interested.
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