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Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

theguardian.com

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Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#41
post #27
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefit do banks get for being multi-nationals exposed to every country's laws instead of just doing one bank per country? I thought that this was the norm for regular businesses.

Banks operate as "one bank per country" (actually, per currency), as the only way to hold e.g. USD is to be incorporated on US soil. However, these are just subsidiaries, owned by the multi-national corporation. Any country can say "comply to our rules or don't do business here", but only a few countries are lucrative enough to actually have any power over foreign subsidiaries.

What do you mean by "the only way to hold e.g. USD is to be incorporated on US soil"? I have some USD and thankfully have no relation to the US. Do you mean bank regulations? That seems to contradict for example Lloyds Bank in the UK having current accounts in USD.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#42

I'm going through this IRS bullshit -personally-. I was under the impression filing taxes was simple, hell why would they make it complicated. But nope, if you live abroad it's twice as complicated for an ex-pat. Worse still, if you're self-employed (like I am) and a freelancer it's ever more paperwork and edge cases to be careful of. And the cherry on top! Software engineers have a whole different set of tax rules.…

I think you meant "Fuck you, US Congress". The IRS is the enforcer, not the source.

Why can it not be both? Congress only passes the Tax Code, the IRS on the other hand has a liberal mandate into how they go about doing their job. They are quite tyrannical when it comes to fees and penalties. They also don't need a court order to garnish your wages or confiscate your property.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#43

"Steep penalties add muscle to the law. If a foreign bank – not just in Canada, but anywhere – fails to report even a single US citizen as a customer to the IRS, the US Treasury department would withhold 30% of the banks’ US income as penalty." What do they mean "US income"? How do they enforce it?

Let's say there is a tiny bank in Lichtenstein. It has two customers. Me, with $10,000 in the bank; I am a U.S. citizen. And the Sultan of Brunei, who deposits $1 billion.

I tell the banker to keep my cash in the bank in Lichtenstein, and I use that bank account to pay my rent, buy food, and other ordinary things.

The Sultan of Brunei tells the banker to take all of his money and plow it into the U.S. stock market.

Tiny Bank of Lichtenstein takes all of the Sultan of Brunei's money and plops it into the U.S. stock market. Buys Google and Apple stock and all that fun stuff.

One day the Sultan of Brunei calls up the bank and says "I would like $1 billion of my money back because I need spending money." The banker sells a bunch of Apple and Google stock until there is $1 billion of cash ready to wire back from New York to the Sultan of Brunei's bank account in Lichtenstein so the Sultan of Brunei can spend his own money.

The Sultan of Brunei, by the way, is not taxable in the U.S. on the capital gain that was made when the banker bought him Apple shares at $75 and sold those shares at $100.

If Tiny Bank of Lichtenstein has the right kind of paperwork in its files about me -- its only U.S. citizen customer, with a trivial amount of money in his bank account -- then the Sultan of Brunei's $1 billion will be wired from New York to Lichtenstein with no problems.

If Tiny Bank of Lichtenstein does NOT have the right kind of paperwork in its files about me -- its only U.S. customer -- then the Sultan of Brunei's $1 billion will face a terrible fate. Thirty percent of that $1 billion will be withheld, and 70% of the money will be wired to the Sultan's bank account in Lichtenstein.

The Sultan of Brunei only gets $700 million in his account. He is grumpy and yells at the banker.

Key metaphysical insights:

1. The 30% problem is imposed on gross money leaving the United States. It has no relationship to whether that money is taxable or not.

2. The U.S. government is threatening the customers of foreign banks with financial loss as a method for forcing the foreign banks to do its bidding. It is not too far off from suggesting that the continued health of your wife and children might be in jeopardy, so why don't you just do me this little favor.

3. If the bank looks at its customer base, who are they going to throw under the bus? Answer: me, the U.S. customer. My presence as a customer creates enormous risk -- risk of penalties payable to the U.S. government, but more importantly a risk that the bank will become unattractive to the Sultan of Brunei. And they don't want to lose the Sultan of Brunei as a customer.

This is why FATCA is so evil. And this is why Americans abroad are increasingly willing to give up their passports.

EDIT. There is a reporting threshold -- foreign banks don't need to report small account holders like me. Adjust my little story to pretend I put $100,000 in the bank. Or adjust my little story to assume -- correctly -- that a bank account that has $10,000 in it today (and is thus fully compliant with FATCA nonreporting) might have $100,000 in it tomorrow and land the bank in a metric tonne of compliance shit.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#44
post #33

This type of article appears every few years. Frankly, I don't think the numbers are very impressive, and they seem to be declining. "In 2013, 2,999 Americans renounced their citizenship; in 2014 so far, it’s a little more than 1,500 people." The population of the US in 2012 was about 314 million. So 0.000009% renounced their citizenship...

I know, from news here in Canada, that they have introduce some delays that are preventing thousands of dual citizens to renounce their US citizenships until 2015 at the earliest. Furthermore, you can not renounce your US citizenship if do not have citizenship in another country. So, of course, most Americans can not do this and to use the population of the US as a relative base for your count is meaningless.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#46
post #23

"Steep penalties add muscle to the law. If a foreign bank – not just in Canada, but anywhere – fails to report even a single US citizen as a customer to the IRS, the US Treasury department would withhold 30% of the banks’ US income as penalty." What do they mean "US income"? How do they enforce it?

Probably if the bank itself files a US tax return. I don't know if they'd be able to enforce it on a strictly local bank that only does business outside the US, but a lot of banks are multinationals.

If the foreign bank does not play along with the U.S. government, it will find itself unable to transact business in U.S. dollars.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#47

Random question: If you had dual citizenship (e.g. Canadian + US), do you even need to tell a bank about your US citizenship when opening an account? Can't you just open it as if you were a Canadian only? Even your US SSN wouldn't be associated with it, so for all the US G and the bank know you're just someone with the same name and birthday. As a random aside: The US Gov is practically the only country in the world…

> As a random aside: The US Gov is practically the only country in the world who tries to collect income tax from US citizens living abroad. The fact that Americans who move away have to file US tax returns for the remainder of their life is bonkers.

Hm, I can somewhat understand that? If I was moving out of Germany and got into trouble abroad, I would expect (and receive) help from the German consulate/government. Paying at least some taxes for that seems reasonable, as long as double taxation and all that is avoided.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#48
My wife and I had tentative plans to buy a place in Costa Rica, but put the plans on indefinite hold. FATCA was a consideration. It is now a pain in the ass for foreign banks to have USA citizens as customers.

Bill Clinton, way back when, signed a bill that would confiscate people's money, over a certain threshold if they renounced their citizenship (money that had already been taxed). My wife and I certainly do not want to renounce our citizenship, so that is not an issue, but spending a lot of time in a foreign home without a local bank account is a nuisance.

I understand the motive behind FATCA (our government needs every bit of revenue it can get, except of course from corporations and the super rich :-) but FATCA is inconvenient.

edit: that is confiscated a certain, sizable percentage of money, over a threshold

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#49
post #3

As a citizen of Uruguay I find the last paragraph very funny: “I feel about the same obligation to file US tax papers as you would if the supreme court of Uruguay all of a sudden decided you were a citizen and had to file a tax return there,” he tells the Guardian. By the way, Uruguayan citizenship is VERY easy to acquire. American expatriates (and dollars :) ) welcome here :) Edit: easy as in requirements. There's a…

As a fellow Uruguayan, I want to add that citizenship comes without too many obligations; no military service or anything like that. The only one I can think of is that voting is compulsory. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend living in Uruguay; I had very good reasons to leave and I don't see myself returning anytime soon. And I'd argue any European passport is better than an Uruguay one - you can freely live an…

Why don't you recommend living there? It sounds like a nice place?

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#50
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks operate as "one bank per country" (actually, per currency), as the only way to hold e.g. USD is to be incorporated on US soil. However, these are just subsidiaries, owned by the multi-national corporation. Any country can say "comply to our rules or don't do business here", but only a few countries are lucrative enough to actually have any power over foreign subsidiaries.

What do you mean by "the only way to hold e.g. USD is to be incorporated on US soil"? I have some USD and thankfully have no relation to the US. Do you mean bank regulations? That seems to contradict for example Lloyds Bank in the UK having current accounts in USD.

All USD transactions clear through the Fed. If you are a bad bank they might not clear your USD transactions. That could be bad for business.
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