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Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

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Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#41

Post by mercurial »

curiousDog wrote: post #6
jnbiche wrote: post #5

The casualness with which the U.S. Government asks a private company to violate EU and Irish law is truly disturbing. The U.S. Gov has gone mad with power. And for perhaps the first time ever: bravo Microsoft! I don't even care if you did if for the PR, it's still a brave stand.

Indeed. And I'm surprised the European governments are just taking it.

There is the Data Protection Law, which makes, as far as I understand, transferring data to the US as ordered by the judge illegal.

That said, why would you be surprised that the same governments happily collaborating with the NSA wouldn't do anything about privacy? We're pretty lucky as it is to have a privacy protection law at all.

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#42

Post by marcosdumay »

serve_yay wrote: post #20

Not that I don't respect the decision, but something tells me that we would be less happy, in other instances, to see giant companies like MS decide when the law should apply to them.

If you, like the article calls appealing[1] by "not following a court order", yes, they are not following it. I don't see much to be concerned about.

[1] Instead of what? Saying "Yes sir" at the first request?

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#43

Post by mercurial »

jkestner wrote: post #24
mercurial wrote: post #2

> Despite a federal court order directing Microsoft to turn overseas-held email data to federal authorities, the software giant said Friday it will continue to withhold that information as it waits for the case to wind through the appeals process. The judge has now ordered both Microsoft and federal prosecutors to advise her how to proceed by next Friday, September 5. > Let there be no doubt that Microsoft's actions…

Assigning noble motives to Microsoft's actions is ignoring the actual motives of a business. How do those same people explain why Microsoft has given the US government user information on other occasions? It's just a calculation of what's the best thing to do for the well-being of the business. Just as banks happily take a "record fine" for breaking the law because it's a small expense to making a lot of money. We ge…

I absolutely agree. On the other hand, the fact that ethics rarely seem to play any role in decision-making at large-scale organization is pretty telling about the sort of people who rise up to the top :(

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#44

Post by sashagim »

ignostic wrote: post #33
jnbiche wrote: post #5

The casualness with which the U.S. Government asks a private company to violate EU and Irish law is truly disturbing. The U.S. Gov has gone mad with power. And for perhaps the first time ever: bravo Microsoft! I don't even care if you did if for the PR, it's still a brave stand.

> The U.S. Gov has gone mad with power. Agreed. Hopefully this encourages more people to stand up to unreasonable violations of privacy from our government. > And for perhaps the first time ever: bravo Microsoft! I don't even care if you did if for the PR, it's still a brave stand. The question of whether a company is following principles or motivated by profit/PR is so strange to me. The question is nonsense and the…

Microsoft is not a person, but it is an organization, and like every organization has a corporate culture. For me, it's absolutely like having a character, exactly like a person has. It certainly starts with the founders, but grows with the company through years of hiring decisions, personal example, and internal communication.

A company, as an organization, can be intelligent or stupid, creative or conservative; it can have social intelligence (Facebook), or it can never get it right with people, but be an excellent engineer (Google). So I don't see why we shouldn't treat an organization as being moral, or immoral, humane or inhumane. By these lines, it's certainly a valid question whether Microsoft is showing character, and high moral standards, or is it simply doing it for personal gain.

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#45

Post by nabla9 »

notastartup wrote: post #12

Good job for Microsoft being the first to stand up against a surveillance government. If only everyone else was brave enough to follow, we would see change.

This is not move against government mass surveillance (collecting intelligence).

This is criminal case and the question is the limits of legal discovery.

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#46

Post by icebraining »

marcosdumay wrote: post #42
serve_yay wrote: post #20

Not that I don't respect the decision, but something tells me that we would be less happy, in other instances, to see giant companies like MS decide when the law should apply to them.

If you, like the article calls appealing[1] by "not following a court order", yes, they are not following it. I don't see much to be concerned about. [1] Instead of what? Saying "Yes sir" at the first request?

The thing is, according to the judge, this is not an appealable order, which is why she lifted the suspension she had set to allow the appeal.

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#47

Post by mrich »

jnbiche wrote: post #5

The casualness with which the U.S. Government asks a private company to violate EU and Irish law is truly disturbing. The U.S. Gov has gone mad with power. And for perhaps the first time ever: bravo Microsoft! I don't even care if you did if for the PR, it's still a brave stand.

I'm amazed how even these US judges cannot see what is wrong with this. Or are they themselves under pressure/threat from the executive and NSA/CIA?

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#48

Post by Joeri »

jnbiche wrote: post #5

The casualness with which the U.S. Government asks a private company to violate EU and Irish law is truly disturbing. The U.S. Gov has gone mad with power. And for perhaps the first time ever: bravo Microsoft! I don't even care if you did if for the PR, it's still a brave stand.

Violating the EU data protection directive would make microsoft liable for a fine of up to 5% of global turnover. Microsoft has been the recipient of EU fines before, so they are likely to wish to play it safe. On the other hand, violating a court order will find them in contempt of court, which may also lead to coercive fines. Since they're facing fines either way, can we assume they are actually making a moral stand here?

Re: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails to US Government

#49

Post by icebraining »

Irish wrote: post #37
tracker1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, I don't think this has much to do with protecting MS's customers, or for that matter standing up for them as it is presented. I'm pretty sure it's more about MS operations being able to continue to run in Ireland and the rest of the EU. If MS hands this data over, you can be assured that MS would face stiff penalties and restrictions to even be able to operate in the EU, and would likely have their Azure f…

I don't think the foreign country would care unless it was data that was owned or related to an entity in that country. Its an american owned and operated data center in Irelend (where I live). Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess) so there dosn't seem to be anything to spark the interest of the Irish legislature. Unless you…

Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess)

Indeed, sounds like a dubious assumption to me.

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