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Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

theguardian.com

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Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#41

Post by Herbert2 »

claudius wrote: post #28
jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

Interesting subject. If the question is "to sprawl or not to sprawl" (that is, urban sprawl), like most truly serious questions, there's no good solution. I live in Oregon, where we have strict urban grown boundaries. Here in Portland, light rail has been developing since the 1970's and still expanding. Bicycling is pushed by city leaders. "In-fill" housing is going up in most every part of town. Utopia? Not everyone…

I think the key here would be to limit both – no buildings higher than ~6 stories (~30m) and a limit on urban boundaries, either enforced by land planning or economics. Standard mansion blocks of six stories still have a much higher population density than suburban sprawling single-family homes while avoiding some/all of the issues with too high a population density – two-lane roads are usually quite sufficient and t…

I'm all for less sprawl but artificial limits like the ones you're describe would IMO only needlessly accelerate gentrification. For instance, it's very difficult to get a spot at a daycare in Munich, not because there isn't space in the system but because the city can't afford to hire staff that can afford to live in Munich.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#42

Post by seanmcdirmid »

reedlaw wrote: post #24

I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. To use a bike, you make a 200 yuan deposit on a public transportation card. The first hour bike rental is free. After that it starts at 1 yuan for the second hour and goes up from there. The card also works for buses (a ride costs 2-4 yuan) using your available balance. After riding a bus, the f…

The rich villas are just what you see; there are plenty of hidden ghetto villages hidden from view. Its quite expensive to live in puxi.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#43

Post by Retric »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #22
hueving wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to implement any kind of useful public transit that would obviate the need to drive everywhere.

Well, of course not. I mean public transportation couldn't cover every section of a region, but it could serve major hubs well enough to reduce automotive use and reduce its downsides. For almost 40 years Portland Oregon has been developing light rail all over the metro region. Rail has been extended to the major districts within a 10 to 15 mile radius of downtown. (Which is a good share of the "spread" that the regi…

Edit: Used wrong numbers for Portland, it's metro area is over 2Million people. That's close to the ~5M population for a metro area which really starts causing major issues.

Portland Oregon is a vary low population city .6M in the middle of no where. It would have been fine without any form of public transit. The real issues show up at around 10x the population where sprawl is to low density to support office buildings and people at the edge can't reasonably commute to the center of the city even with public transport.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#44

Post by Retric »

WildUtah wrote: post #20
doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

I think what this signals is not that there is something particularly backwards about China. Chinese suburban sprawl shows that no matter the style of governance or how markets deal with housing, it seems like people converge on the same poor urban planning practices. Or, you could interpret the similar mistakes as proof that real estate in America is dealt with in a way that's far from free. Texas, the heart of the…

no matter the style of governance or how markets deal with housing, it seems like people converge on the same poor urban planning Actually, the USA is known for its soviet style command and control urban planning. China is known for direct state control as well. In either country you can expect to be told what you can build, how big it can be, setbacks, parking, street access, and lot sizes. USA cities are laid out w…

The US has zero central control development. It's all local which creates huge issues.

It ends up with the worst parts of state control and capitalism by being rather corrupt at the local level. It subsidizes new development and creates barriers to redevelopment. Rent control, NIMBY, etc etc it's a mess.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#45

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #34
reedlaw wrote: post #24

I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. To use a bike, you make a 200 yuan deposit on a public transportation card. The first hour bike rental is free. After that it starts at 1 yuan for the second hour and goes up from there. The card also works for buses (a ride costs 2-4 yuan) using your available balance. After riding a bus, the f…

> I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. Do people use these in your experience? I've noticed them pop up all over Germany and then Taiwan too, but I found it hard to spot anyone but tourists riding public bikes. I always wonder if these are simply prestige projects to impress green-minded citizens (like myself).

In Stuttgart they are actually used a lot, though I think they would get used more if the bikes themselves weren't so hideous. In an age where bikes are the new cars, how can they ignore design?

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#46

Post by Padding »

wesleyy wrote: post #2

I don't think saying China didn't see and learn from the failing aspects of American city planning is fair or useful, especially when it comes to road planning. The Chinese and American culture on road use is completely different: (power/gas) scooters and (regular) bikes are extremely popular in Beijing, and Chinese drivers are generally much more aggressive. Because of this, most road users, including bikers, are ca…

> Would a segregated lane make commuting on smaller vehicles safer? Undoubtedly. Would it be necessary to incentivize biking over driving larger vehicles? Probably not.

Because numbers on charts matter more than people on the streets being safe. This is sad.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#47

Post by gphil »

Retric wrote: post #43
jrapdx3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, of course not. I mean public transportation couldn't cover every section of a region, but it could serve major hubs well enough to reduce automotive use and reduce its downsides. For almost 40 years Portland Oregon has been developing light rail all over the metro region. Rail has been extended to the major districts within a 10 to 15 mile radius of downtown. (Which is a good share of the "spread" that the regi…

Edit: Used wrong numbers for Portland, it's metro area is over 2Million people. That's close to the ~5M population for a metro area which really starts causing major issues. Portland Oregon is a vary low population city .6M in the middle of no where. It would have been fine without any form of public transit. The real issues show up at around 10x the population where sprawl is to low density to support office buildin…

Not really. Portland is the 19th largest MSA and 29th largest city in US. There is only one city in the US that is 10x Portland in population (NY) and there are no MSAs that are 10x the size of Portland's (not even NY's.)

You don't need to be NY for transit to make a huge difference. Portland is a squarely mid-size American city and its quality transit is a key selling point.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#48

Post by coldcode »

To quote poet Carl Sandberg - "The fog comes on little cat feet. It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on." The problem is that screwing up the environment can happen so slowly that by the time you start to realize how bad it is to may be too late.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#49

Post by Retric »

gphil wrote: post #47
Retric wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Used wrong numbers for Portland, it's metro area is over 2Million people. That's close to the ~5M population for a metro area which really starts causing major issues. Portland Oregon is a vary low population city .6M in the middle of no where. It would have been fine without any form of public transit. The real issues show up at around 10x the population where sprawl is to low density to support office buildin…

Not really. Portland is the 19th largest MSA and 29th largest city in US. There is only one city in the US that is 10x Portland in population (NY) and there are no MSAs that are 10x the size of Portland's (not even NY's.) You don't need to be NY for transit to make a huge difference. Portland is a squarely mid-size American city and its quality transit is a key selling point.

OPS, used wrong numbers for Portland. It's the metro area that's important not the nominal city lines.

Any way. Nominally DC has a population of 646,449, however the DC metro area is 5.8 million. The Baltimore Metropolitan Area has grown steadily to approximately 2.7 million and has fewer issues with transit, but it's getting steadily worse.

And the NY metro area is 23.5 Million people.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#50

Post by jpatokal »

There's one aspect where China has well and truly learned from America's mistakes: public transport. Every Chinese city of any importance has a metro system that's shiny new and heavily used. In 1993, the Shanghai Metro did not exist; today it's the world's longest, and by some measures the busiest.

http://www.urbanrail.net/as/asia.htm http://www.urbanrail.net/as/cn/shan/shanghai.htm

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