The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros • Hacker News Board

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#41

Post by levosmetalo » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 2:43 PM UTC

harywilke wrote: post #23

usethis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting the mirror is not helping your case. From the article: > Ms Merkel had even warned European countries could end up warring with each other if the euro collapses. What Merkel actually said: > She told the German parliament: “No one should think that a further half century of peace and prosperity is assured. If the euro fails, Europe will fail.” Taking your news from the Mirror is a surefire hit to general cyni…

With a higher unemployement rate than the US had at the peak of the Great Depression, I'd question your version of "a lot".

Without Europe the problems would be even greater. I traveled frequently to Greece during seventies, eighties and nineties, as well as recently. If I compare Greece from each one of these decades, the progress shown in each one of them is great. Despite all this crisis taking place now, Greeks still live much better than 10 something years ago. All of that because of the EU money floating around. And that's why the Greek majority still choose to stay in the Euro zone and play by the rules instead of parting on their own. They still choose Europe, because they see how Greece benefited from beeing a part of it, and that it was really Greeks themselves and their legally elected governments that are to blame.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#42

Post by james1071 » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 2:43 PM UTC

dageshi wrote: post #36

Atropos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't get the amount of hate and derision the European Union is always getting from US commentators. Culturally and geographically, for example Finland and Greece do not have much in common - yet Finland is willing to help them out, despite the "NO BAILOUT" clause explicitly implemented in the construction of the eurozone. Meanwhile the USA has neighboring countries like Mexico or Cuba with huge problems lik…

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order. If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it i…

I think you have got that the wrong way round. The best option for Greece was to default, but instead Greece was sacrificed to save the Euro.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#43

Post by pavlov » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 2:45 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #37

ama729 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005) > Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was > offered a choice. That's because not all countries have a referendum culture/law, for example, you can't have a referendum in Belgium, there is simply no legal mean to do it. And arguably, you can say democracy is working, since the European Constitution was not enacted. > Lisbo…

> Unless the vote was rigged, then what's the problem? To let people vote so long till they vote what you want to be the result is a classical method from the toolkits of authoritarian regimes. It is the embodiment of democracy as a façade. It is the same as rigging the vote.

Doesn't this depend entirely on what the regime does between the elections?

Having regular elections on important issues is not a sign of totalitarianism in itself. Some political offices only have a two-year term, and that's not because the government wants people to keep voting until the right person gets elected...

AFAIK, the Irish government didn't jail, beat up, bribe or otherwise coerce anyone to vote for the Lisbon treaty.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#44

Post by jpollock » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

Atropos wrote: post #40

dageshi wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order. If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it i…

That may be the official US/UK media narrative, but it is nonsense to anyone who looks at the underlying data. Do you realize that a restructuring of Greece debt has already happened with Greece private creditors incurring around 53.5% face value losses? And guess what - the Eurozone is fine. Furthermore Greece GDP and banking is tiny compared to the Eurozone. Does sharing the same currency mean that mean that the US…

It's not about Greece, it's about Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy and then possibly France.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#45

Post by james1071 » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 2:49 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #39

pcrh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is principally about the Euro as a currency, not the EU as a political entity. The EU currently covers more than 12 separate currency zones, to which there are a further 21 European currencies. So, a total of approx 34 currencies (depending on how some are counted). The undeniable success of the EU is based on its ability to have never-ending negotiations between it's constituent parts. With regards to co…

> they have found to their undoubted regret that poor fiscal policies leads to a lot of pain, even if you have a "rich uncle" such as Germany Talk about blaming the victim ... The shitty fiscal policies in Greece or similar problem in Spain, Italy has caused major distress in the population, especially the youth who have had no time to know about and much less profit for their various countries peculiarities. The han…

The problem was not fiscal, it was capital flows and deflationary policies by Germany.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#46

Post by Kurtz79 » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 3:23 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

Agreed... I think it's depressing that many people believes that "things were better before the Union"...

Before the Union there was War. There has been war almost continuously in Europe since we have written records.

The EU is far from perfect, but is a product of WW2, when people was aware that another war in the nuclear age probably would have meant the annihilation of entire populations.

Relinquishing part of one's country independence and autonomy was considered a fair trade for peace and security.

My grandfather was made prisoner by the English in WW2, and not 60 years later I was able to take a plane and start living and working in England with just my ID card.

This freedom (and security) for me is worth every wrinkle and obstacle the EU can and will have.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#47

Post by dageshi » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 3:50 PM UTC

Atropos wrote: post #40

dageshi wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order. If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it i…

That may be the official US/UK media narrative, but it is nonsense to anyone who looks at the underlying data. Do you realize that a restructuring of Greece debt has already happened with Greece private creditors incurring around 53.5% face value losses? And guess what - the Eurozone is fine. Furthermore Greece GDP and banking is tiny compared to the Eurozone. Does sharing the same currency mean that mean that the US…

It was the precedent that mattered not the size of the Greek economy, in the same way that the size of Lehman brothers in the US didn't matter individually but the precedent that the US government would no longer write blank cheques to bailout failing institutions did. With Greece the precedent was set that what "NO BAILOUT" actually meant was "NO BAILOUT" if the problem is small enough to not impact anyone else.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#48

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

The problem is in having a common currency without a central bank of last resort or a common financial framework. It allows Germany to loan countries on the periphery money which will be used to buy products from Germany. Those countries cannot adjust their currencies to adapt to the threat, so they're left in a constant state of penury and dependance on Germany.

It's not about kumbaya and peace in Europe. The Euro does absolutely nothing to maintain that, and conflating Europe as a political entity and the common currency is a deception.

I hope Merkel will change course before Germany is surrounded by failed states headed by populist right-wing nationalists running on anti-German platforms.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#49

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

Atropos wrote: post #40

dageshi wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order. If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it i…

That may be the official US/UK media narrative, but it is nonsense to anyone who looks at the underlying data. Do you realize that a restructuring of Greece debt has already happened with Greece private creditors incurring around 53.5% face value losses? And guess what - the Eurozone is fine. Furthermore Greece GDP and banking is tiny compared to the Eurozone. Does sharing the same currency mean that mean that the US…

>it would be impossible to explain why the yields of German/Austrian/Finnish bonds are trading at a vastly different level than the Italien/Spanish/Portuguese etc... bonds!

Only if one doesn't understand the difference between a debtor and a lender. The common currency helps the core, and hurts the periphery. Where's the contradiction?

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#50

Post by ama729 » Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 4:05 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #37

ama729 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005) > Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was > offered a choice. That's because not all countries have a referendum culture/law, for example, you can't have a referendum in Belgium, there is simply no legal mean to do it. And arguably, you can say democracy is working, since the European Constitution was not enacted. > Lisbo…

> Unless the vote was rigged, then what's the problem? To let people vote so long till they vote what you want to be the result is a classical method from the toolkits of authoritarian regimes. It is the embodiment of democracy as a façade. It is the same as rigging the vote.

Except an argument can be made that this referendum mean nothing, the turnout was 53%, only 53% voted against it and 40% of those 53% didn't even know what they were voting on[1].

And things even changed between referendum[2], so yeah, a second vote was warranted IMO.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the...