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The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

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Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#31

Post by mattlutze »

gbog wrote: post #19
rjzzleep wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over you must have missed the news. because that is exactly the rhetoric the eu politicians keep using. [1] "if the euro fails there will be war". for the nitpickers amongst you with the choice…

> conflict is the natural law of things. if you keep suppressing it for too long, the backlash will get even bigger. Yes, but we civilized humans, with the helps of centuries, went against nature, and decided we are no beasts. We instituted Justice, the Law, moral frameworks, and many other things that are human-made patches to Nature. Do you think it is in vain? If you had a disabled kid at arm's length today, would…

Current events would indicate that the world has not changed as much in the last 20 years as you would seem to portend.

I think that the inherit youth of the readership here (mind you, I count myself as part of it) may blind us somewhat to the fragility of the relative peaceful period we're experiencing around the world.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#32

Post by yread »

cynicalkane wrote: post #26
spikels wrote: post #7

Don't waste your time trying to understand the rantings of this lunatic. Like many of the uber rich he made his money from being lucky and political connections not from actually learning anything new. His incoherent theories (e.g. reflexivity) are simply cover for whatever scheme he is currently perusing to gain even more weath and power.

This is a textbook ad hominem attack. It's trying to discredit someone using insults, and it is considered a logical fallacy. It's not the insult that makes an ad hominem, it's using with insults as an excuse to dismiss someone's arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem It doesn't help that the OP's insult premise, despite its frothing anger, is your garden-variety, vaguely conspiratorial hate of evil rich…

I think it is correct not to trust what he says. He has a history of currency speculations, so stuff he says publicly might be just him trying to stir some shit. Is he short on euro again like with pound in 1992? If he discloses his positions, perhaps we can take what he says at face value.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#33

Post by ama729 »

vixen99 wrote: post #20
gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

"....willingly tend towards a common political entity". Willingly ? European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005) Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was offered a choice. Lisbon Treaty (2008): Only Ireland asked people to ratify it. No one else was offered a choice. Initially Ireland voted - 53.2% against but then when told to vote again and get it right - 60.3% in fa…

  > European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005)
  > Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was
  > offered a choice.
That's because not all countries have a referendum culture/law, for example, you can't have a referendum in Belgium, there is simply no legal mean to do it.

And arguably, you can say democracy is working, since the European Constitution was not enacted.

  > Lisbon Treaty (2008): Only Ireland asked people to ratify it. No one
  > else was offered a choice. Initially Ireland voted - 53.2% against but
  > then when told to vote again and get it right - 60.3% in favour.
Unless the vote was rigged, then what's the problem?

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#34

Post by streptomycin »

gbog wrote: post #13
andybak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if Soros holds some enmity for the European project but everything I've read indicates that he thinks it's eventual success to be of critical importance and he has spent a lot of time and effort in trying to increase its chances of long-term success.

I do not read Soros' prose on a daily basis. From the interview it seems he dreams of some financial Europe fitting his dreams and needs. It is unlikely that a majority of Europeans would share his values. So he is no enemy, but his comments are aggressive and dismissive of Europeans.

I think you're misreading the interview. He knows that the majority of Europeans don't share his values. He was hoping that would change, given the recent economic issues which seem to be largely driven by the euro. But as he said:

The window of opportunity to bring about radical change in the rules governing the euro has closed. ... I am giving up on changing the financial arrangements, the creditor–debtor relationship that has now turned into a permanent system. I will continue to focus on politics, because that is where I expect dramatic developments.

He then goes on to express nothing but positive sentiment regarding the potential for beneficial political developments stemming from the EU.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#35

Post by fbnt »

gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

I agree, except for the 'common political entity' bit. EU, till now, has been mostly a financial institution, rather than a political one. We will be a political union only when all of us will speak a common language, and all of us will be allowed to vote on the same set of politicians/leaders. Obviously, there's no well-intentioned advice from Soros, and we all know it.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#36

Post by dageshi »

Atropos wrote: post #22
gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

I really don't get the amount of hate and derision the European Union is always getting from US commentators. Culturally and geographically, for example Finland and Greece do not have much in common - yet Finland is willing to help them out, despite the "NO BAILOUT" clause explicitly implemented in the construction of the eurozone. Meanwhile the USA has neighboring countries like Mexico or Cuba with huge problems lik…

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order.

If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it in the first place, the "NO BAILOUT" clause was effectively worthless and irrelevant.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#37

Post by onli »

ama729 wrote: post #33
vixen99 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"....willingly tend towards a common political entity". Willingly ? European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005) Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was offered a choice. Lisbon Treaty (2008): Only Ireland asked people to ratify it. No one else was offered a choice. Initially Ireland voted - 53.2% against but then when told to vote again and get it right - 60.3% in fa…

> European Constitution (2005) France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005) > Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005). No one else in Europe was > offered a choice. That's because not all countries have a referendum culture/law, for example, you can't have a referendum in Belgium, there is simply no legal mean to do it. And arguably, you can say democracy is working, since the European Constitution was not enacted. > Lisbo…

> Unless the vote was rigged, then what's the problem?

To let people vote so long till they vote what you want to be the result is a classical method from the toolkits of authoritarian regimes. It is the embodiment of democracy as a façade. It is the same as rigging the vote.

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#38

Post by dharma1 »

spikels wrote: post #7

Don't waste your time trying to understand the rantings of this lunatic. Like many of the uber rich he made his money from being lucky and political connections not from actually learning anything new. His incoherent theories (e.g. reflexivity) are simply cover for whatever scheme he is currently perusing to gain even more weath and power.

I have read one of his books and somewhat agree with your assessment of his "reflexivity" ideas. However wonder why you think he is a lunatic, and if you have examples of how you think his success is attributable to connections rather than intellect?

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#39

Post by gutnor »

pcrh wrote: post #21
gbog wrote: post #8

It is funny to see the construction of Europe, which is arguably the first time in human history that different groups of people willingly tend towards a common political entity without external threat and blood spilled all over, criticised from inside and outside by the likes of Soros, who will never understand that finance is a tool and not an end. I hope Merkel and other Eurocrats will firmly continue to not liste…

The article is principally about the Euro as a currency, not the EU as a political entity. The EU currently covers more than 12 separate currency zones, to which there are a further 21 European currencies. So, a total of approx 34 currencies (depending on how some are counted). The undeniable success of the EU is based on its ability to have never-ending negotiations between it's constituent parts. With regards to co…

> they have found to their undoubted regret that poor fiscal policies leads to a lot of pain, even if you have a "rich uncle" such as Germany

Talk about blaming the victim ...

The shitty fiscal policies in Greece or similar problem in Spain, Italy has caused major distress in the population, especially the youth who have had no time to know about and much less profit for their various countries peculiarities. The handling of the crisis has been financial with no concern for the population.

To go back to your family analogy. It is like you convincing your neighbor to rob a bank. When all goes south, your rich uncle bail you out and refund the bank, letting you keep what you stole. Your neighbor is not so lucky, he is jailed, and so are his wife and kids just make the lesson more painful.

I'm a true European, married to an European of another country, living in a third one with friends all around. Teaching fiscal policies to corrupt politicians by destroying the future of people they only indirectly care about is not my idea of an "Union of the People".

Re: The Future of Europe: An Interview with George Soros

#40

Post by Atropos »

dageshi wrote: post #36
Atropos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't get the amount of hate and derision the European Union is always getting from US commentators. Culturally and geographically, for example Finland and Greece do not have much in common - yet Finland is willing to help them out, despite the "NO BAILOUT" clause explicitly implemented in the construction of the eurozone. Meanwhile the USA has neighboring countries like Mexico or Cuba with huge problems lik…

The rest of europe bailed out Greece due to forced self interest, they shared the same currency and effectively the same banking system, had they not bailed out Greece the repercussions would have found their way back to all the other countries inside the eurozone in short order. If you share the same currency and banking system you end up being responsible for each others debts whether you liked it or agreed to it i…

That may be the official US/UK media narrative, but it is nonsense to anyone who looks at the underlying data. Do you realize that a restructuring of Greece debt has already happened with Greece private creditors incurring around 53.5% face value losses? And guess what - the Eurozone is fine. Furthermore Greece GDP and banking is tiny compared to the Eurozone. Does sharing the same currency mean that mean that the USA is forced to bail out the city of Detroit?

If the mantra "Same currency - responsible for all debts" was true, it would be impossible to explain why the yields of German/Austrian/Finnish bonds are trading at a vastly different level than the Italien/Spanish/Portuguese etc... bonds!

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