David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show' • Hacker News Board

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#41

Post by sseveran » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

touzen wrote: post #37

spindritf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing Is this idea actually being implemented anywhere? Isn't education, even in the US, almost wholly sponsored by the government? People talk about student loans bu…

In Sweden private for profit schools and schools run by the municipalities compete with each other. All of them are funded by the tax payers and they get a certain amount of money for every student. The system is a disaster, with a lot of for profit schools slashing costs to maximize profits regardless of what the consequences are for the students. And that's just one of the many failures of the system. Basically, th…

If you stop chasing profits then there is no incentive to produce a quality product. The US public schools are a great example of that.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#42

Post by scarmig » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #28

majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

That argument is tiresome.

Many libertarians want to enforce a very particular and ahistorical version of property rights, one dictated from above and with a studied blindness for the reason we've invented the group of rights we think of as property. They want to subject everyone to a society where state violence is used for and only on behalf of people who in the past were granted monopoly access to some material good.

Force seeps through everything we do in a society, because it's a good like any other. Many libertarians demand everyone be forced into a machine of their own invention. And that's not any more damning of them than of anyone else, but they should own it. They're not hoping for a world where people aren't forced into things, but a world where people are forced into their own narrow vision of what's moral and righteous.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#43

Post by steveklabnik » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #41

touzen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden private for profit schools and schools run by the municipalities compete with each other. All of them are funded by the tax payers and they get a certain amount of money for every student. The system is a disaster, with a lot of for profit schools slashing costs to maximize profits regardless of what the consequences are for the students. And that's just one of the many failures of the system. Basically, th…

If you stop chasing profits then there is no incentive to produce a quality product. The US public schools are a great example of that.

There's no inherent incentive to produce a quality product when chasing profit either, just one that people will give you money for. Sometimes this aligns with quality, other times, it does not.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#44

Post by nickff » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

touzen wrote: post #37

spindritf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing Is this idea actually being implemented anywhere? Isn't education, even in the US, almost wholly sponsored by the government? People talk about student loans bu…

In Sweden private for profit schools and schools run by the municipalities compete with each other. All of them are funded by the tax payers and they get a certain amount of money for every student. The system is a disaster, with a lot of for profit schools slashing costs to maximize profits regardless of what the consequences are for the students. And that's just one of the many failures of the system. Basically, th…

Profits ~= value of product - resources consumed

There is nothing wrong with firms making profits, it is a sign of efficiency, and a sign of where resources should be allocated; with time, the least efficient firms are eliminated, and only those which create the most value at the lowest cost remain. The problem is that the product (and its value) may not reflect the objective(s) of the policymakers and the public, and the chief goal of those creating any system should be to properly align rewards with desired outcomes.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#45

Post by patrickmay » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

NegativeK wrote: post #33

patrickmay wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on the political front, but I'm right with you on what we're actually debating. Hearing fellow liberals claim that conservatives want the poor and disadvantaged to suffer is like hearing conservatives say that liberals just want to take money from the rich and give it to people who don't deserve it. Both arguments are shitty, and both either imply that the speaker isn't listening or…

Have an upvote, you socialist bastard!

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#46

Post by mooreds » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:00 PM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #41

touzen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden private for profit schools and schools run by the municipalities compete with each other. All of them are funded by the tax payers and they get a certain amount of money for every student. The system is a disaster, with a lot of for profit schools slashing costs to maximize profits regardless of what the consequences are for the students. And that's just one of the many failures of the system. Basically, th…

If you stop chasing profits then there is no incentive to produce a quality product. The US public schools are a great example of that.

But are profits the best way to measure a "quality product" when it comes to something like education?

I would argue not, or at least that externalized costs need to be internalized somehow (regulation or taxation are the typical means).

That is to say, if we have for profit public schools, I'd want their profits to be tied to the long term effects of results of their students, not to yearly test scores.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#47

Post by xradionut » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:00 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #23

bsirkia wrote: post #8

The hardest thing for me is that I'm super aware of how fucked up things are, but not totally sure what can done so just say "this sucks" and go back to work and whining about healthcare and listening to Slate podcasts. If I learned anything from the Wire, it's that these problems Simon brings up are so institutionalized that there's almost no way to fix them without some massive change, but I'm too small and irrelev…

The thing people that write these articles don't acknowledge was how fucked up things were in the USA, even in the 'great' times. The 50's and 60's were a booming time for the economy and middle class. But black people still had their lines to wait in, had to sit in the back of the bus, and we had 'colored' drinking fountains. Things have came a long, long way since then. Things might not be perfect and there are bit…

But the US population as a whole has slid backwards in power and monetary means over the last thirty years. The shenanigans that allowed the elite to walk over the working class had their roots in the late 70's and 80's with the shift to the right and the "Greed is Good" era.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#48

Post by nickff » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

pzuraq wrote: post #24

patrickmay wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

If government were not as influential as you claim, there is absolutely no reason the wealthy would use the resources they buy power with to provide goods and services, especially to the poor and needy who cannot afford them as is. In fact, you completely ignore the robber barons and a time when less regulation DID exist, and society was even less free and equal. There is NO such thing as a truly free market. Free ma…

You should read more about the "robber barons", as they did a lot of good, by increasing competition, decreasing costs to consumers, and breaking state monopolies.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#49

Post by steveklabnik » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:02 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #23

bsirkia wrote: post #8

The hardest thing for me is that I'm super aware of how fucked up things are, but not totally sure what can done so just say "this sucks" and go back to work and whining about healthcare and listening to Slate podcasts. If I learned anything from the Wire, it's that these problems Simon brings up are so institutionalized that there's almost no way to fix them without some massive change, but I'm too small and irrelev…

The thing people that write these articles don't acknowledge was how fucked up things were in the USA, even in the 'great' times. The 50's and 60's were a booming time for the economy and middle class. But black people still had their lines to wait in, had to sit in the back of the bus, and we had 'colored' drinking fountains. Things have came a long, long way since then. Things might not be perfect and there are bit…

I head it put this way recently: "Which good old days? The ones where people owned other people? Where children worked in factories? Where the only literate people were priests?"

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#50

Post by clarkm » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:02 PM UTC

majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not? To me, the answer is blindingly obvious. It's demonstrated by what societies are flourishing - with high economic and social equality, healthy democratic government, protected personal liberties, well-cared-for populaces, and resilient economies - and what societies aren't.

And the blindingly obvious answer is?

Here's my simple model: large, diverse countries are more unequal than small, culturally homogeneous countries. Just like densely-populated, cosmopolitan regions are more unequal than bland suburbs. Just like world is more unequal than the US.