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Hawala

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Re: Hawala

#41

Post by jholman »

rmc wrote: post #40
diziet wrote: post #14

One important thing to know is that in islamic banking, interest or anything that exploits time value of money is considered usury, and is haraam (sinful). There exists a whole institution of islamic banking compliant with shariah law. From gift giving for usage of money such as hibah to good will repayment of debt such as qardul hassan where the debtor may repay more than the principal amount, islamic banking seeks…

It used to be this way with/amoung Christians (in the middle ages). But non-Christians could lend to Christians. That meant Jews were able to lend to Christians. People often did 'hacks' against it, such as using pawn shops. Many cities in Europe have a "Lombard Street" based on this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_banking )

So San Francisco is not the only city with a remarkably crooked Lombard Street?

Re: Hawala

#42

Post by conformal »

bane wrote: post #22

I've heard this system compared to the old Renaissance Medici double entry banking system. It's possible that Italian bankers learned about this system and saw it as more secure than moving boxes of money and valuables around thus establishing the foundations of modern banking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_Bank It's also pretty much how Western Union works.

interesting, i wasn't aware that the medicis pioneered the double entry accounting methods.

Re: Hawala

#43

Post by lfmb »

cup wrote: post #12

I work for quite a big Hawala system (www.bakaal.com.au) and were thinking about implementing bitcoins. Moving through the legislation is the biggest stumbling block.

If you reach the bitcoin community, probably, you will find help. The community is really friendly towards the spread of bitcoin use.

Re: Hawala

#44

Post by dobbsbob »

htmcer wrote: post #27
nl wrote: post #7

I almost linked to this, too, in the "Western Union says Bitcoin is not ready for international transfer" discussion[1]. The interesting thing about Hawala is that it provides a ready source of liquidity in local currencies. If someone was to link the two (ie, a local Hawala agent accepted a Bitcoin transfer from an untrusted source, and then moved the money via the trusted Hawala network) then almost all the problem…

Hawala and other informal networks are accounted for 40% of the remittances sent every year.[1] USD 534 billion were sent in 2012 via formal networks. Analyzing the remittances flow and their impact in the receiving countries (often more in term of %GDP than official intl development aid), it's a shame that the global average fee to "remit" is 9% and up to 12% while sending money towards Sub-Saharan Africa. [2] But t…

Al Jazeera had a good story a while back about migrant workers in South Africa being unable to send money home to Zimbabwe because of huge fees for small amounts, and they have to have ID which costs their whole paycheck

Re: Hawala

#45

Post by mhb »

wmf wrote: post #21
diziet wrote: post #14

One important thing to know is that in islamic banking, interest or anything that exploits time value of money is considered usury, and is haraam (sinful). There exists a whole institution of islamic banking compliant with shariah law. From gift giving for usage of money such as hibah to good will repayment of debt such as qardul hassan where the debtor may repay more than the principal amount, islamic banking seeks…

It's hard for me to escape the feeling that Islamic banking replaces usury with hypocrisy, but I guess high-context Cultures could probably make the same argument in reverse.

For a real laugh, check out Shabbat elevators or the eruv:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv

Re: Hawala

#46

Post by htmcer »

dobbsbob wrote: post #44
htmcer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hawala and other informal networks are accounted for 40% of the remittances sent every year.[1] USD 534 billion were sent in 2012 via formal networks. Analyzing the remittances flow and their impact in the receiving countries (often more in term of %GDP than official intl development aid), it's a shame that the global average fee to "remit" is 9% and up to 12% while sending money towards Sub-Saharan Africa. [2] But t…

Al Jazeera had a good story a while back about migrant workers in South Africa being unable to send money home to Zimbabwe because of huge fees for small amounts, and they have to have ID which costs their whole paycheck

Yeah, South-Africa > Zimbawe is one of the most costly corridor in the world. Starting at 20%...

Re: Hawala

#47

Post by lobo_tuerto »

miguelrochefort wrote: post #37
nl wrote: post #7

I almost linked to this, too, in the "Western Union says Bitcoin is not ready for international transfer" discussion[1]. The interesting thing about Hawala is that it provides a ready source of liquidity in local currencies. If someone was to link the two (ie, a local Hawala agent accepted a Bitcoin transfer from an untrusted source, and then moved the money via the trusted Hawala network) then almost all the problem…

> If someone was to link the two (ie, a local Hawala agent accepted a Bitcoin transfer from an untrusted source, and then moved the money via the trusted Hawala network) then almost all the problems of Bitcoin would go away. http://www.ripple.com

Does it work everywhere?

Re: Hawala

#48

Post by gwern »

bane wrote: post #22

I've heard this system compared to the old Renaissance Medici double entry banking system. It's possible that Italian bankers learned about this system and saw it as more secure than moving boxes of money and valuables around thus establishing the foundations of modern banking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_Bank It's also pretty much how Western Union works.

Yep! That was one of the realizations that dawned on me as I was writing that article in 2006 and carefully reading through de Roover's description of how the home Florence branch would transact with the foreign branches using drafts and other instrument: "hey, this is just like hawala! They would spend each other's money and occasionally balance the books with import/export deals."

Re: Hawala

#49

Post by wmf »

amjd wrote: post #36
wmf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard for me to escape the feeling that Islamic banking replaces usury with hypocrisy, but I guess high-context Cultures could probably make the same argument in reverse.

Where's the hypocrisy in that? Perhaps I'm just being dense, but I fail to see the connection.

When paying a gift instead of interest, is the "gift" obligatory by any chance? Is it the same thing under a different name?

Re: Hawala

#50

Post by amalag »

lobo_tuerto wrote: post #47
miguelrochefort wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone was to link the two (ie, a local Hawala agent accepted a Bitcoin transfer from an untrusted source, and then moved the money via the trusted Hawala network) then almost all the problems of Bitcoin would go away. http://www.ripple.com

Does it work everywhere?

I think the question is, "Is there a ripple gateway for my location/currency"
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