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Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

blog.mibbit.com

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Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#41

Post by ankhmoop »

axod wrote: post #38
ankhmoop wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been placed in the position of semi-regularly banning mibbit from freenode OSS project channels due to abusive users, I can't see how this is a bad thing. The quality of user was exceptionally low, and "easy webchat" simply doesn't seem like a strong value proposition for the technical users that frequent the network.

What was the quality of user like for mIRC?

About the same as any other client that makes it difficult to mask your identity via open web proxies.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#42

Post by ankhmoop »

sho wrote: post #39
Jem wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).

"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "…

Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion.

I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#43

Post by abstractbill »

sho wrote: post #39
Jem wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).

"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "…

people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences

This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client.

Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#44

Post by ankhmoop »

abstractbill wrote: post #40
ankhmoop wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't serve as counter argument for web chat providing strong value proposition, just that Freenode leveraged existing open source software to provide an alternative solution that they could directly manage. http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-wh...

In what way are they making it more secure? Mibbit already implemented the WEBIRC protocol - how does the Freenode client go further than that?

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can:

1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse.

2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC.

3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connections (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall)

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#45

Post by jodrellblank »

sho wrote: post #21
pygy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also claim that the communication and collaboration with Mibbit wasn't easy. Direct link to their new web IRC client: http://webchat.freenode.net/

Wow, that client is great ! A lovely, clean design, written in Python, GPL2. Damn, so many nice things written in Python .. guess it's time to learn it : /

great!

"Disconnected from server: Connection to IRC server lost: Buffer overflow"

Mibbit has never done that to me...

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#46

Post by abstractbill »

ankhmoop wrote: post #44
abstractbill wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are they making it more secure? Mibbit already implemented the WEBIRC protocol - how does the Freenode client go further than that?

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connectio…

(1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate?

(3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#47

Post by ankhmoop »

abstractbill wrote: post #43
sho wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "…

people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat…

This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client.

First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC-capable proxies.

Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall order, equivalent to peering their IRC servers with Mibbit, as it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity.

Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.

What 'trust' must be divested in end-user, per-user desktop IRC clients? Mibbit must be trusted to report user identity accurately, to not allow proxy connections, and to quickly respond to abuse while not causing freenode's volunteer's undue labor.

Most importantly, freenode is privately owned and managed, it's not a public service and has no responsibility to provide service to Mibbit, especially if Mibbit causes a disproportionately sized administrative headache.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#48

Post by menloparkbum »

abstractbill wrote: post #43
sho wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "…

people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat…

Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode

From what I've read in your comments in the past, I'm assuming you used Twisted for the IRC backend. I was wondering, if you were starting this project today, would you still use Twisted? (apologies for veering off topic)

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#49

Post by ankhmoop »

abstractbill wrote: post #46
ankhmoop wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connectio…

(1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate? (3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.

Why should freenode, a not-for-profit independent entity, be required to extend trust to a third party service and their reporting of user identity?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#50

Post by mrtron »

ankhmoop wrote: post #41
axod wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the quality of user like for mIRC?

About the same as any other client that makes it difficult to mask your identity via open web proxies.

Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a proxy?

There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too.

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