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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#41
post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

> It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time.

The government takes the position that their agents are almost completely unconstrained by law when it comes to actions taken abroad aimed at non-US persons.

Even were a court somewhere to find that this interpretation is incorrect, there are numerous "good faith reliance" doctrines that prevent any prosecution or even civil consequences.

The government outright tortured people for years, and nothing has come of it. No prosecutions. No damages for victims. No cases dismissed for outrageous government conduct. Not even very many harsh words from judges. The only people for whom there were any consequences were the low level regular army people who got in on the torture train without first getting official blessing.

It'll be the same thing here. If some low level employee went out on his own to hack into Google servers, something might come of it. But by all appearances these programs were deliberate, planned, and vetted. In those circumstances the bad actors have long since learned to cover their own asses. There will be no consequences for them.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#42
post #23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. Are we sure about that?

I think we have enough information for Google to plausibly deny involvement.

re: bediger4000

The phrase has that smell when used by the person denying. If an action or inaction is taken to preserve plausible deniability, it is smelly.

But when used by an observer after the fact, it just means that we have no way to know they knew, unless there is proof. So if they say they didn't know, it is a believable statement.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#43

People will no doubt come on this thread and remind everyone that of course the government always had access - you must have been a fool not to think so. But I just can not get over how angry it makes me. Honestly I thought that using google products with some exploitation of the contents for advertising was an acceptable exchange. This is just a total betrayal and I cannot believe that the Google board is not aware…

This might be a good time to go back and look at what you said to all those cypherpunks who kept talking about the need to build security into Internet protocols from day 1. Whitefield Diffie had pointed out this problem -- that online services could violate user privacy without any technical barriers -- in the 1970s and pointed to it to motivate public key cryptography. Throughout the 90s and 00s people were saying that we should be deploying cryptography more widely, yet these arguments were largely ignored or dismissed.

So really, this is not about the government. Rather it is about the inherently insecure design of today's email, IM, payment, and social networking systems. While the cryptography research community and the hacker community have proposed numerous solutions, few have worked to deploy such solutions. Worse, many hackers and computer scientists have actively worked against such deployment by building businesses that are monetized by violating user privacy.

Before talking about your anger, take a moment to think about what you were saying to people 5, 10, or 20 years ago when this topic came up (I am speaking to everyone now, not just jimparkins).

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#44
Meta remark, somewhat snarky: I would like to know at what point do all the HN'ers making fun of those libertarians among us concerned with security -- I believe over a period of months we were called "tinfoil hat types" and worse -- come back and offer us an apology.

I am not holding my breath.

(Although it's a snarky comment, I didn't make the comment just to snark. The point was to point out that over and over again, the folks who are concerned about government encroachment are made fun of, put down, and lampooned to a great degree. More often than not, these concerns turn out to be true. In most cases this happens long after the debate has died down. This is an important lesson from history that we all would do well to learn. This story has a lot more facets to it than just the NSA/USA angle)

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#45
post #12

Gen. Keith Alexander, asked about it at a Bloomberg event, denied the accusations. "I don't know what the report is," Alexander cautioned, adding the NSA does not "have access to Google servers, Yahoo servers." He said the NSA is "not authorized" to do this, and instead, must "go through a court process." http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/keith-alexander-nsa-re...

Nothing he said actually responds to the allegations.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#46
post #10
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with everything you say, Google was still defeated by the NSA. Will Google ever catch up in this arms race? "95% encrypted" == "100% compromised"

Google appears to have been so on the ball with this stuff that the NSA literally had to send bag men to their cages in order to retain access.

The article seems to suggest that it was inter-site links that were compromised and not actual Google data centers. Those compromises could happen at telco data centers or even in the field (e.g., by splicing monitoring equipment into a cable).

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#47
post #12

Gen. Keith Alexander, asked about it at a Bloomberg event, denied the accusations. "I don't know what the report is," Alexander cautioned, adding the NSA does not "have access to Google servers, Yahoo servers." He said the NSA is "not authorized" to do this, and instead, must "go through a court process." http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/keith-alexander-nsa-re...

A lot hinges on the definition of "servers" being used. And how the question was put to Alexander. If there's even one alternate interpretation he can say No. Another non-denial denial. He is talking at lawyer-level now. This level of detail is not present in the Politico story.

Not that he would say Yes if we asked in the right way!

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#48
post #12

Gen. Keith Alexander, asked about it at a Bloomberg event, denied the accusations. "I don't know what the report is," Alexander cautioned, adding the NSA does not "have access to Google servers, Yahoo servers." He said the NSA is "not authorized" to do this, and instead, must "go through a court process." http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/keith-alexander-nsa-re...

That's a potentially perfectly accurate statement that doesn't in any way refute the story. The leak indicates they have access to the fiber lines between datacenters, not the servers themselves.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#49
post #28

Can anyone explain what exactly is meant by "SSL added and removed here! :-)"?

It means that the Google Front End (GFE) server is where encryption/decryption of SSL happens, and that communication outside the GFE (e.g., Google->Client) is encrypted, while communication behind the GFE (internal to the Google Cloud) is clear text.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#50
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with everything you say, Google was still defeated by the NSA. Will Google ever catch up in this arms race? "95% encrypted" == "100% compromised"

Google might have an easier time recruiting edge producing developers than the NSA after the leaks.

I imagine anyone with a line on their resume that says "NSA - Software Developer - 2009:Present" is going to have a hard time finding a new job at many companies (although certainly not all).
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