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Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impeach him. I'm sorry if you voted for him and you think it's a too "radical" move, but I really think it's actually a very "proportional" and reasonable move at this point. More think he should be impeached if he goes to war with Syria despite a No vote from Congress and despite UN saying no, and breaking international law. I think the NSA thing is at least as big as that, and if he does both then it's that much cl…

I would agree. However I think it is more important to impeach those in charge of the intelligence community first and then work up to the President. I am not sure the President is in the loop here. As far as I can tell he gets most of his info in these areas from the same sources that we do.

> I am not sure the President is in the loop here. As far as I can tell he gets most of his info in these areas from the same sources that we do.

And you're okay with that?

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#42

I don't blame the NSA for this, their rationale is "lets collect as much as possible and then see, gathering intel is in our mission...". After all it's all legal as far as they are concerned. I don't even blame the Exec branch that much since they have a LE mentality of "if you have nothing to hide...protect lives...blah blah" I do however blame the courts, they could've stopped or at least not-rubber stamped this.…

I blame them all, but even more so, I blame the people. Snowden isn't the first whistleblower to emerge; google William Binney, Mark Klein, and Thomas Drake. This knowledge has been within earshot of the public for nearly a decade now, yet people just don't seem to care enough to do anything about it. There seems to be some kind of implicit collective trust in the government, that whatever they're up to is for our ow…

The American people simply haven't had the misfortune of living under a totalitarian regime. That said, right now they should be earnestly listening to those who have; but sadly they seem to be brushing those views aside with thinking such as "well, that won't happen here".

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#44
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh -- I do believe he had a better marriage than Bill Clinton. Who cares? He was still a laughable fuckup as president.

Obama is at least at the same level on the fuckup and laughability meter, esp. wrt the international community.

Not quite, but if he really bombs Syria, then yeah, he'll definitely enter GWB territory.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#45
post #39

> “The government says, ‘We’re not targeting U.S. persons,’ ” said Gregory T. Nojeim And again, the foreigners' right to protection of their privacy is not even up for discussion. I'm tempted to say this is un-american. But thinking it over, it seems to actually have become the new "american". In any case, this kind of attitude can not come from nation that sees itself as "the best country in the world".

Americans believe their country has been chosen by God: ordained by divine powers to be the leader of the world. So it's not surprising that they view the rights of foreigners with contempt or at the very least lack of interest. "Un-american" supposedly means against freedom (and a range of other positive buzzwords) which is pretty hilarious given their behavior.

Some Americans. I do believe some actually know they've just been lucky enough to get a fairly resilient constitutional framework designed in an era of Enlightenment, and then smart enough to be on the right side of history during the three major conflicts that shaped the last century.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#46
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cheney administration was openly deceitful, as it were, a brazen set of liars fronted by an idiot stooge. This turn of events - particularly given Obama's rhetoric and the expectations of him - seems in many ways much more insidiously dangerous. That's one way to look at it. Another is that the policies were put in place under Bush/Cheney, and they are being exposed under Obama. Obama ran on transparency, and thi…

Indeed, it is worth noting that some of Obama's campaign promises have actually been fulfilled, albeit despite his best efforts....

Remember in Obama's first term, the GOP strategy was strict opposition. But now Obama's positions on present issues make strict opposition more difficult because he is, on face value, supporting many GOP policies.

There seems to be a bit of "don't throw me in the briar patch" mixed in with a dash of "gaffes" and "blunders". This surreal stew may be designed to complicate the GOP's public policy opposition strategy.

And in the case of Syria, even Bush's ex-admins are split on what to do (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bush-vets-split-on-syr...).

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#47
post #21

My reading of Obama is that he is nearly terrified about being blamed for anything. If the OP is correct, then this is some blame that might stick to Obama. In this case, my reading is that he will rush to correct the situation. So, first step, pin the blame on Obama, and then let him suffer with it until he changes it.

May be more terrified of the next 9/11 and criticism that he didn't do enough to stop it. (I'm not condoning their decisions.)

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty hard to take your point seriously when your second paragraph is so clearly wrong and more a SNL sketch than reality. No President in the modern era has been stupid. The psychotic need to perpetuate this is one of the ideas making politics in the USA worse than it should be. The evidence and interviews with the former President show him to be very intelligent.

What evidence shows Bush Junior to be particularly bright or competent? His grades at Yale? His running into the ground of multiple business? His embarassing performance as President? Don't get me wrong -- there are a lot of smart, competent conservatives I think are sometimes wrong and or just on a different side of class interest from me. Say, Dick Cheney, Bush Senior, Ronald, Nixon (off the charts smart, really).…

Compare Bush's Texas gubernatorial speeches to his presidential speeches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvknGT8W5jA

Bush Library Opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw86w6G9e3E

Uncommon Knowledge: President George W. Bush On His Presidency and Life After the White House: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48Co8InGi4

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#49
post #47
post #21

My reading of Obama is that he is nearly terrified about being blamed for anything. If the OP is correct, then this is some blame that might stick to Obama. In this case, my reading is that he will rush to correct the situation. So, first step, pin the blame on Obama, and then let him suffer with it until he changes it.

May be more terrified of the next 9/11 and criticism that he didn't do enough to stop it. (I'm not condoning their decisions.)

Yes, of course, but now for Obama that possibility of blame for not stopping another terrorist attack can seem less important than the actual blame, now, for the NSA spying on US citizens, that is, will so seem to Obama if enough people raise heck over the NSA spying.

If I were the POTUS, then I'd have my staff draft a short statement and use it to address the nation. The main point would be that the US actually is vulnerable to an attack by terrorists, and even if we totally lock down our country, turn the US into a 'surveillance' state and a police state, trash most of the Bill of Rights, damage our domestic economy, shoot our international trade in the gut, etc., we will still be vulnerable. We can't be 100% safe.

I'd mention that often there are several courses of action, with some safer than others but none 100% safe. E.g., from B. Schneier, after 9/11 so many people were so afraid of commercial air travel and drove cars instead that the fact that cars are much less safe than air travel resulted in more deaths of US citizens than 9/11 caused.

Might also mention that a goal of UBL was not to defeat the US via force but just to trick the US into a response so absurd and wasteful that the US would bankrupt itself, and here UBL has had a lot of success.

Then I'd ask the US citizens to go to a special, nationwide referendum on what to do, (1) return to the US as it was before 9/11 with some prudent and legal improvements to stop terrorists or (2) trash much of what is great about the US and still be vulnerable to terrorists. In this choice, we have to notice that the terrorists are not totally stupid and will avoid confronting the defenses we do put up and, instead, exploit ways in which we are still vulnerable.

A review of the track record of just what good all our anti-terrorism hysteria -- NSA, 'militarization' of local police, trashing the Bill of Rights, the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, the TSA trashing our domestic transportation industry, excesses by our Customs units, the money, etc. -- actually accomplished.

E.g., we should note the Boston bomber -- the NSA, etc. didn't stop him.

Then let the US citizens decide.

Good way for Obama to play CYA and also get the US back to a sane country away from some national neurotic hysteria from a few wackos with airline tickets and box cutters.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#50
post #32
post #29

Obama's presidency has been disastrous for the privacy of American citizens: “The [surveillance] Court documents declassified recently show that in late 2011 the court authorized the NSA to conduct warrantless searches of individual Americans’ communications using an authority intended to target only foreigners,” Wyden said in a statement to The Washington Post. “Our intelligence agencies need the authority to target…

Impeach him. I'm sorry if you voted for him and you think it's a too "radical" move, but I really think it's actually a very "proportional" and reasonable move at this point. More think he should be impeached if he goes to war with Syria despite a No vote from Congress and despite UN saying no, and breaking international law. I think the NSA thing is at least as big as that, and if he does both then it's that much cl…

Impeachment won't go anywhere, he can hide behind sycophants who would twist the whole endeavor as being racially oriented. Even now that one issue is what keeps many mouths silent, on the NSA, Syria, and other events. Go read some of the stories of some of Hollywood's best known anti-war activist are stymied by this prospect.

No, the way to get the message across is to keep it alive and use in the 2014 elections to ensure his party is trounced. Yes that will mean giving the Republican's the upper hand in Congress but fortunately or unfortunately depending on your political stance they are pretty inept at using it well. There are some Republicans that need to go as well and they should not be given free pass.

It comes down to getting the American people to stay interested enough, to adopt the philosophy of "throw the bums out". If that means we swing back and forth each two years or four then so be it, for when one party has dominance too long we get into situations like we are today.

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