Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated • Hacker News Board

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#41

Post by tsotha » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:19 AM UTC

tjogin wrote: post #27

altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

How do you know that bird/pig flu wouldn't have had more severe impact if it wasn't for the vaccinations?

Last year the flu vaccine was only about 35% effective in my area and the world didn't end. In a normal year you're in no danger from the flu unless your pulmonary or immune systems are compromised.

Of course that's not true every year.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#42

Post by raphinou » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:21 AM UTC

raphinou wrote: post #20

I am not against vaccines, it saves lives, but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore, with all proposals for inefficient vaccines against benign affections. Sadly both camps (pro and anti vaccines) have too extreme positions to have a constructive debate.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#43

Post by robbiep » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:25 AM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable

There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#44

Post by girvo » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:34 AM UTC

drewrv wrote: post #19

rbourke wrote: post #9

The effectiveness of vaccines rely on 'herd immunity', that is: you need more than 90% of a population immunised to stop a disease spreading (as vaccines are never 100% effective)(also varies according to vaccine types/adjuvants and disease contagiousness) So by not vaccinating your self/dependents you are actually extremely selfish as you are benefiting from herd immunity whilst at the same time avoiding the (small)…

Worse, some people can't get certain vaccines, due to health/immune issues. They actually need herd immunity to stay alive. By refusing to get vaccinated, you're putting already sick people at risk.

Like me, I'm allergic to most vaccines. So I can't have them, and require herd immunity to keep me OK. Thankfully I've been fine thus far.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#45

Post by TsiCClawOfLight » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:35 AM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

+1 for Bad Science, that book is amazing! Not only in this respect; it covers many topics really, really well. Everyone should have read it.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#46

Post by weland » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:38 AM UTC

laughfactory wrote: post #33

sliverstorm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The folks who skip out on vaccination are (consciously or not) doing one or both of the following: 1) Counting on the herd immunity provided by everyone else to keep them safe 2) Pretending that the diseases which are being vaccinated against "really weren't all that bad" or maybe "didn't happen often"

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research indicating which vaccines pass the cost/benefit test. Not all vaccines are created equal--including some that are intended to solve for the same thing. And all too many who blab their opinion on pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine do so with a minimum of research and evidence to s…

> Sure there are anti-vaccine myths just as their are pro-vaccine myths. Some vaccines provide almost no benefit and entail fairly significant risks.

Can you provide some examples (three or four would be ok, that should count as "some") of these vaccines, backing your results with real, reputable research?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#47

Post by jlgreco » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:39 AM UTC

raphinou wrote: post #42

raphinou wrote: post #20

I am not against vaccines, it saves lives, but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore, with all proposals for inefficient vaccines against benign affections. Sadly both camps (pro and anti vaccines) have too extreme positions to have a constructive debate.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

Vaccines save lives. Millions of lives. Pro-vaccine is not an extreme position, it is the sane position.

I downvoted you because I think you are presenting a false compromise. An "argument to moderation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#48

Post by bayesianhorse » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:40 AM UTC

altero wrote: post #30

bayesianhorse wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing some of the details on vaccination, I can't agree. There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. Competition is usually harder. I wouldn't call the bird/pig flu story hype. There was a wide consensus that these viruses were a threat and might have the potential for a pandemic. It killed a lot of people, and as far as I remember it had a higher mortality rate than…

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

Exactly the kind of attitude which can hurt people. Even kill them.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#49

Post by tjogin » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:42 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #41

tjogin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that bird/pig flu wouldn't have had more severe impact if it wasn't for the vaccinations?

Last year the flu vaccine was only about 35% effective in my area and the world didn't end. In a normal year you're in no danger from the flu unless your pulmonary or immune systems are compromised. Of course that's not true every year.

The seasonal flu isn't like H1N1, the latter put some young healthy people under so bad that they had to be hospitalized for weeks and needed equipment to breathe.

Those who suffer that bad from the seasonal flu are very old, very young or have a very weakened immune system.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#50

Post by hrktb » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 8:42 AM UTC

rbourke wrote: post #9

The effectiveness of vaccines rely on 'herd immunity', that is: you need more than 90% of a population immunised to stop a disease spreading (as vaccines are never 100% effective)(also varies according to vaccine types/adjuvants and disease contagiousness) So by not vaccinating your self/dependents you are actually extremely selfish as you are benefiting from herd immunity whilst at the same time avoiding the (small)…

I am pro vaccination for anything that has sufficient maturity (high proof of action/low enough risk).

For the sake of the point, I'll just put out that vaccination is for the good of the community, but this community might not fully commit to support members who react badly to vaccines.

I don't refer to direct health concerns if something goes bad, but on the long term effects when there is some disability left. You'll vaccinate your kid to protect others as well, but if his lever doesn't stand it and became diabethic, you'll have a hard time finding schools that will provide assistance towards kids with special needs.

If a vaccine has a 1% chance of going awry, commiting to do what it takes to support the 1% "unlucky" ones would help a lot lowering the resistance toward vaccines.