Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events • Hacker News Board

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#41

Post by pretoriusB » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

jacobian wrote: post #28

oellegaard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Women in Denmark make about 10% less than men for the same work [1]. Granted, that's better than the US, where it's more like 75¢ on the dollar, but I'd hardly call that equality. I don't know enough about Denmark to know whether gender discrimination persists in technical fields, but my guess is that women make up far less than half of the technical workforce (that's the case for most of Europe [2]). [1] http://econ…

>Women in Denmark make about 10% less than men for the same work [1]. Granted, that's better than the US, where it's more like 75¢ on the dollar, but I'd hardly call that equality.

And whole ranges of employees make less than other ranges of employees. There are lots of women in business that make 20 and 100 times what I make, for example.

Equal pay for men and women does not necessarily translate to equality at the workplace (it's based on a non verified premise that men and women's output and negotiating skills are equal). Have you researched if those women that make 10% less than men:

1) put 10% less to their work (e.g because they prefer investing more in their children than in the whole career rat-race)

2) Are less cut-throat salary negotiators? As an employee myself, I know that employees get what they are able to negotiate, not what they deserve and surely not equal pay.

Equality is equal pay for equal work -- regardless of gender race or creed.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#42

Post by mjg59 » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:13 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #33

jacobian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in Denmark make about 10% less than men for the same work [1]. Granted, that's better than the US, where it's more like 75¢ on the dollar, but I'd hardly call that equality. I don't know enough about Denmark to know whether gender discrimination persists in technical fields, but my guess is that women make up far less than half of the technical workforce (that's the case for most of Europe [2]). [1] http://econ…

And unless you will find a way for a male become pregnant that will never change. For better or worse there are differences between males and females and from a pure economical point of view that results in different risks in regards to employers. How exactly does that however play into sexual harassment on conferences?

There's no inherent reason that pregnancy should result in women spending less time at work than men, and Danish parental leave laws mean that it's possible for a father to spend more time on 100% paid leave than a mother. The risk to employers is a consequence of local laws and social norms, not an absolute.

The relevance? There's this horrible idea that sexism doesn't exist in enlightened liberal societies with aggressive equality laws, and so any attempts to fix harassment should be done by just passing laws. In reality it's a social issue, and just like any social issue it doesn't get fixed through laws alone. Social attitudes need to change, and part of that is making it clear what the acceptable social attitudes at community events are.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#43

Post by wnight » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:13 PM UTC

oellegaard wrote: post #37

mjg59 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?

No, but I assume it doesn't have to be in the code of conduct, that there should be a staff meeting when a murder occurs, to decide if the local law enforcement should be involved?

Event terms and conditions would become nicer if they didn't list the (already illegal) things that will get you expelled from the event but just said "Any criminal act, and especially the removal by police for these acts, will result in immediate expulsion except in the sole judgement of the event staff".

Even if the event wants to say something about it above and beyond that, it frees them up to say "We all know the law on this, but to encourage our ideal atmosphere (which is X) the voluntary by attendance code of conduct will also be ...." without repeating all the mundane bits of the law.

tl;dr, don't remind me something is illegal, remind me certain attitudes are unwelcome and leave it there.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#44

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:15 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #38

oellegaard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not claim to have a right to attend a conference. If someone, man or woman, would report sexual harassment in Denmark, it would be done to the police, who would take proper actions. Actually, I explicitly do not want the conference staff to act like a conference police. Keep in mind that if they throw someone out of a conference because of harassment which proves wrong later - this persons image will be forever…

It's rather telling that you relate to and sympathize more with the perpetrators than the victims of sexual harassment. Something to consider.

I think you just won the tasteless comment on hackernews award.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#45

Post by mjg59 » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:16 PM UTC

oellegaard wrote: post #37

mjg59 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?

No, but I assume it doesn't have to be in the code of conduct, that there should be a staff meeting when a murder occurs, to decide if the local law enforcement should be involved?

Laws aren't enough to prevent things from happening. The fact that Denmark has equality laws doesn't mean that it's gender-equal, and it certainly doesn't mean that there's no sexual harassment. There are strong social mores against murder. There aren't strong social mores against sexual harassment. Having a code of conduct helps indicate to attendees that whatever their personal beliefs about sexual harassment are, and regardless of what local laws there may be about it, it won't be tolerated.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#46

Post by commenter4694 » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:17 PM UTC

mrtron wrote: post #30

This feels like a "Caution this beverage is hot" label on a coffee cup. Shouldn't it be obvious to not act like a jerk at a Python event?

From the article:

  Part of this effort is the social realization of one of the Zen of Python rules:
  
    Explicit is better than implicit.
  
  What I mean is this: no more unwritten rules or expectations.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#47

Post by pretoriusB » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

oellegaard wrote: post #22

kenneth_reitz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not a political issue.

Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)

Well, there are also some countries that consider the pre-occupation with things such as "sexual harassment" that some Americans have obsessive and indicative of a society that relegates even basic human relations to the courtroom and to arcane prudish codes of conduct.

You took something valid (like being against sexual harassment when it's a bloody actual harassment) and you overblown it out of proportion.

Italians or French, e.g., have no problem with things such as office romance.

For example, the French did not give a flying duck if their President had a known ex-marital affair and even a child (like Miterrand), whereas Americans had this whole BS "moral outrage" when Clinton had an affair. Heck, Italians even voted multiple times into office a Prime Minister that is known to have wild parties with models and prostitutes (Berlusconi).

Not everybody in the world is as uptight as white Americans.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#48

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #42

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And unless you will find a way for a male become pregnant that will never change. For better or worse there are differences between males and females and from a pure economical point of view that results in different risks in regards to employers. How exactly does that however play into sexual harassment on conferences?

There's no inherent reason that pregnancy should result in women spending less time at work than men, and Danish parental leave laws mean that it's possible for a father to spend more time on 100% paid leave than a mother. The risk to employers is a consequence of local laws and social norms, not an absolute. The relevance? There's this horrible idea that sexism doesn't exist in enlightened liberal societies with agg…

> There's no inherent reason that pregnancy should result in women spending less time at work than men, and Danish parental leave laws mean that it's possible for a father to spend more time on 100% paid leave than a mother. The risk to employers is a consequence of local laws and social norms, not an absolute.

It's not the time that matters, it's the timing. You can't legally (and you should not) force a pregnant woman to come to work.

> There's this horrible idea that sexism doesn't exist in enlightened liberal societies

Not all gender inequality is sexism. There are physical and psychological differences between our genders. Case in point: possibility of dichromacy among males versus potential tetrachromacy among females.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#49

Post by pretoriusB » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:26 PM UTC

jnoller wrote: post #39

pretoriusB wrote: post #36

Another strike against free speech for the PC police.

And how is offering guidelines for inappropriate behavior including explicit guidelines for conflict resolution trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event ? I guess harassment falls under free speech. My bad dog.

>trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event?

Speech should be free in public AND in private events.

Else you get societies giving lip service to the idea of "free speech" in public, and then destroying the public spaces of discourse.

(How about Google censoring your email or blog? It's their private infrastructure after all).

>I guess harassment falls under free speech.

No, it's just that white Americans have no idea what harassment means. Some guy showing a slide with a bikini model at a Ruby conference was enough to cause a "moral outrage" a couple of years ago.

(And, no, it's not about the relevance of the slide, which meant as a joke: if he had shown something equally non relavant, like a Star Wars joke or a LoTR joke, everybody would have been fine with it).

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#50

Post by mjg59 » Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #48

mjg59 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no inherent reason that pregnancy should result in women spending less time at work than men, and Danish parental leave laws mean that it's possible for a father to spend more time on 100% paid leave than a mother. The risk to employers is a consequence of local laws and social norms, not an absolute. The relevance? There's this horrible idea that sexism doesn't exist in enlightened liberal societies with agg…

> There's no inherent reason that pregnancy should result in women spending less time at work than men, and Danish parental leave laws mean that it's possible for a father to spend more time on 100% paid leave than a mother. The risk to employers is a consequence of local laws and social norms, not an absolute. It's not the time that matters, it's the timing. You can't legally (and you should not) force a pregnant wo…

And in Denmark, you have no control over when a father might take paternity leave. This basic economic truth you're asserting is a product of society, not a product of biology.

>Not all gender inequality is sexism.

True, just the vast majority of it. But next time women complain that they're being underpaid, do remind them of the lucrative opportunities that await them in the growing field of "People better able to tell the difference between shades of green". I'm sure that'll make them feel better.