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Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

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Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#31

Post by oellegaard »

jacobian wrote: post #21
oellegaard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.

Sheesh, there's just so much that's wrong, disingenuous, and outright hilariously silly about these couple of sentences that I hardly know where to begin. Let's see... * You don't have a right to attend a private event. The organizers of any event - a conference, a concert, whatever - have the right to ask you to leave at any point for any reason. You are, in fact, more protected with a code of conduct in place becau…

I did not claim to have a right to attend a conference.

If someone, man or woman, would report sexual harassment in Denmark, it would be done to the police, who would take proper actions. Actually, I explicitly do not want the conference staff to act like a conference police. Keep in mind that if they throw someone out of a conference because of harassment which proves wrong later - this persons image will be forever destroyed in the community.

I'm not talking about PyCon, it was mentioned that this applies to anything sponsored by PSF (correct me, if I'm wrong).

I don't personally know who organizes every event I attend, I attend events because I think the subject is interesting or because people I find interesting attends or speaks.

I agree harassment is underreported but there have been issues with fake reports in the media as well.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#32

Post by rburgosnavas »

jnoller wrote: post #29
rburgosnavas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one way of enforcing these standards. Think of them as "interfaces" that everyone is exposed to and encourage to implement. It's up to you to go along with them or not, but for the benefit, sake, and sanity of your team members, it is recommended that you stick to them. If one doesn't and things start to get buggy or not compatible, then other would ask you why you didn't follow the implementation. It is unfo…

I don't think we're policing anyone like children. At least I hope not, I don't have time for that. But the reality is that we live in a time where explicit trumps implicit social norms, for example: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

True, that was an exaggeration. As adults, we should know, are least have enough common sense, about what is acceptable behavior, at least, but hopefully exclusively, in a professional setting.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#33

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

jacobian wrote: post #28
oellegaard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Women in Denmark make about 10% less than men for the same work [1]. Granted, that's better than the US, where it's more like 75¢ on the dollar, but I'd hardly call that equality. I don't know enough about Denmark to know whether gender discrimination persists in technical fields, but my guess is that women make up far less than half of the technical workforce (that's the case for most of Europe [2]). [1] http://econ…

And unless you will find a way for a male become pregnant that will never change. For better or worse there are differences between males and females and from a pure economical point of view that results in different risks in regards to employers.

How exactly does that however play into sexual harassment on conferences?

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#34

Post by jnoller »

mrtron wrote: post #30

This feels like a "Caution this beverage is hot" label on a coffee cup. Shouldn't it be obvious to not act like a jerk at a Python event?

Quoting myself http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct (recursion depth exceeded):

BUT EVERYONE IS NICE, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN COOL I know. Honestly, I do. Except for minor incident that I recall, PyCon US has largely been free of issues such as this. Every meetup, conference, etc I have been to has been filled with nice, kind people and largely jerk-free. This is a testament to the community as a whole.

So, you ask: if we're all chill cool people, and nothing bad has happened, why have one?

Because it won't always be that way.

If we continue to expand and grow (and we will), and if we continue to grow even more diverse - in sex, race, creed and geography - the chances of "an incident" will grow. In fact, I know incidents have happened and been dealt with.

So no, the unspoken rule of "don't be a jerk" doesn't scale very well. And that's what we're talking about - a scalability problem. The social norms and rules of a group of five people, or one hundred people may float. What about 200? 500? 800? How about 2300 people (the attendance of PyCon 2012)? No. "Don't be a Jerk" may be our unspoken, unwritten community motto; but its not enough for those on the outside looking in.

Those outside of these circles want clear lines on behavioral expectations. They want to know that not only are there unwritten rules about not being a jerk - they want to know what will happen if a Jerk Occurs. This sets their expectations, and it gives them comfort. It makes them feel more welcome, more safe. Especially when they're part of a group who has been put under constant objectification and harassment for decades in our industry.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#35

Post by lutze »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #26
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Actually, I'm not even sure that "enforcement" is all that relevant. It's more about articulating the norms of behavior so that people can learn from them and grow.

Articulating the norms of behavior? The norms in this code are the basic skills of interacting in society, anyone past the age of 17 should have internalized them. More: one expects anyone past that age of live by them, and consequently one can (and should!) deal with any violator in the appropiate manner.

Yes I agree, but it's not like this has come apropos of nothing.

Unfortunately a small minority apparently don't know how to behave appropriately around others, and need this shit to be spelled out.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#37

Post by oellegaard »

mjg59 wrote: post #20
oellegaard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?

No, but I assume it doesn't have to be in the code of conduct, that there should be a staff meeting when a murder occurs, to decide if the local law enforcement should be involved?

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#38

Post by ahelwer »

oellegaard wrote: post #31
jacobian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sheesh, there's just so much that's wrong, disingenuous, and outright hilariously silly about these couple of sentences that I hardly know where to begin. Let's see... * You don't have a right to attend a private event. The organizers of any event - a conference, a concert, whatever - have the right to ask you to leave at any point for any reason. You are, in fact, more protected with a code of conduct in place becau…

I did not claim to have a right to attend a conference. If someone, man or woman, would report sexual harassment in Denmark, it would be done to the police, who would take proper actions. Actually, I explicitly do not want the conference staff to act like a conference police. Keep in mind that if they throw someone out of a conference because of harassment which proves wrong later - this persons image will be forever…

It's rather telling that you relate to and sympathize more with the perpetrators than the victims of sexual harassment. Something to consider.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#39

Post by jnoller »

pretoriusB wrote: post #36

Another strike against free speech for the PC police.

And how is offering guidelines for inappropriate behavior including explicit guidelines for conflict resolution trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event?

I guess harassment falls under free speech. My bad dog.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#40

Post by Sanddancer »

pretoriusB wrote: post #36

Another strike against free speech for the PC police.

You have every right to speak like a knuckle-dragging troglodyte. The PyCon folks also have every right to say for you to do it somewhere other than their private convention space.
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