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US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

nytimes.com

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Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#41

Post by adjejmxbdjdn »

Argonaut998 wrote: post #36

This is massively humiliating for Trump (and the US). None of the US' objectives were accomplished aside from "Iran never having a nuclear weapon" which was already established through the JCPOA, which Trump tore down and never ceased to remind everyone how terrible it was and how Obama was an abysmal negotiator. Which begs the question, why didn't Trump just try to recreate the JCPOA without going to war? Pride?

As far as I can tell they haven’t reached any agreement, never mind a JCPOA level one, on the nuclear issue, and only plan on discussing it over the next 2 months.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#42

Post by [deleted] »

pugio wrote: post #29
lyu07282 wrote: post #4

The key part to understand why this means nothing: > Iran’s Supreme National Security Council said in a statement that the country had finalized a memorandum of understanding with the United States > The agreement will be signed on Friday > In a statement, Supreme National Security Council said the agreement called for an immediate end to military operations on all fronts, including Lebanon But Israel is never going…

I've always wondered what "illegal" means in this context? Is it designed to just be a pejorative, or something incendiary? When is an invasion "legal"? I can't really think of any case where any kind of recognized body of law (especially one that both constituents would recognize) would impose legality on an invasion, so it seems that people say "illegal" in much the same way that "legal" has become a stand-in in ou…

[deleted]

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#43

Post by DanielHB »

defrost wrote: post #35
modo_mario wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did hezbollah come to exist in what was a christian nation not that long ago? How would it be erased and without a new one propping up right outside that exclusion zone?

> a christian nation not that long ago? Gosh .. Leaving aside a history of human occupation going back to 5,000 BC or so and looking just at more recent history, Lebanon came under Ottoman rule in the early 16th century and that "proto state" became a concentration area for Lebanese Maronite Christians who (IIRC) made up only 25% or so of the population. I think it would be better described as a nation with Christian…

I talked to a Lebanese born person once and apparently they have a parlament with reserved seats for each major religious group.

Apparently that was the only way they managed to keep the country stable. But it is baffling to have religion so entrenched on the constitution.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#44

Post by jameshilliard »

benj111 wrote: post #30
jameshilliard wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These wars would only ever end if every force in the middle east that offers resistance to Israel's ambitions are defeated, but that resistance is both inevitable and offers the exact justification needed to implement said ambitions, its wonderfully circular. Obviously if there are terrorist attacks coming from a neighboring country then one would expect retaliation. You seem to be arguing terrorist attacks don't j…

You do realise that Gaza isn't a separate country? Not that it's the same country, as either option would require Israel to give it's citizens voting rights, or it's rights as an independent nation.

> You do realise that Gaza isn't a separate country?

I'm aware the status of Gaza is somewhat complicated.

> Not that it's the same country

Its status as a country at all is also not very clear due to only partial international recognition.

> would require Israel to give it's citizens voting rights

I don't think Israel is very likely to give citizenship to a group of people when the majority of those people don't think Israel should even exist.

> it's rights as an independent nation

They did try moving in that direction, with disengagement in Gaza, but it clearly didn't work out.

I'm not really sure what the best approach to the problem is right now, but presumably de-radicalization of some form is going to be needed for the Palestinians due to UNRWA schools and others teaching children terrorist propaganda, and that's happening even in the more moderate PA controlled areas.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#45

Post by jameshilliard »

lyu07282 wrote: post #27
jameshilliard wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These wars would only ever end if every force in the middle east that offers resistance to Israel's ambitions are defeated, but that resistance is both inevitable and offers the exact justification needed to implement said ambitions, its wonderfully circular. Obviously if there are terrorist attacks coming from a neighboring country then one would expect retaliation. You seem to be arguing terrorist attacks don't j…

> That's not unexpected when there are military tunnels under the cities. How else could they be eliminated? Brilliant, any underground structure becomes a "terror tunnel", its wonderful you can level whole neighborhoods and afterwards claim it was justified because there were tunnels there. If that were true we would see gaps in the destruction in the satellite imagery wouldn't we? Or where they digging tunnels in g…

> Or where they digging tunnels in grid patterns to every house in every neighborhood and under every street?

Tunnels were used by Hamas to move between buildings AFAIU, so large amounts of buildings would have tunnels under them, not to mention many buildings were booby trapped with explosives by Hamas so clearing the explosives often would result in the destruction of buildings as well.

> What total moral bankruptcy to just blanked declare every civilian home and infrastructure as justifiable targets.

If they get used for military purposes then they become military targets is my understanding of how the rules of war generally work.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#46

Post by jameshilliard »

DanielHB wrote: post #43
defrost wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a christian nation not that long ago? Gosh .. Leaving aside a history of human occupation going back to 5,000 BC or so and looking just at more recent history, Lebanon came under Ottoman rule in the early 16th century and that "proto state" became a concentration area for Lebanese Maronite Christians who (IIRC) made up only 25% or so of the population. I think it would be better described as a nation with Christian…

I talked to a Lebanese born person once and apparently they have a parlament with reserved seats for each major religious group. Apparently that was the only way they managed to keep the country stable. But it is baffling to have religion so entrenched on the constitution.

> keep the country stable

Well, that part didn't exactly work out in practice.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#47

Post by DanielHB »

jameshilliard wrote: post #46
DanielHB wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talked to a Lebanese born person once and apparently they have a parlament with reserved seats for each major religious group. Apparently that was the only way they managed to keep the country stable. But it is baffling to have religion so entrenched on the constitution.

> keep the country stable Well, that part didn't exactly work out in practice.

More stable than outright civil war.

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#49

Post by modo_mario »

defrost wrote: post #35
modo_mario wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did hezbollah come to exist in what was a christian nation not that long ago? How would it be erased and without a new one propping up right outside that exclusion zone?

> a christian nation not that long ago? Gosh .. Leaving aside a history of human occupation going back to 5,000 BC or so and looking just at more recent history, Lebanon came under Ottoman rule in the early 16th century and that "proto state" became a concentration area for Lebanese Maronite Christians who (IIRC) made up only 25% or so of the population. I think it would be better described as a nation with Christian…

>who (IIRC) made up only 25% or so of the population. >I think it would be better described as a nation with Christians (and other faiths) rather than as a purely Christian nation.

The total was the majority of the population and yes it wasn't a purely christian nation. https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e... You can similarly describe various countries as multifaith but in practice it happens rarely. Very few people descibe israel as such for example.

At the end of the day if hezbollah is vanquished and for that the frontier is shifted why is the expectation not that a new one in kind props up outside of this new frontier?

Re: US and Iran reach cease fire agreement

#50

Post by ukblewis »

lyu07282 wrote: post #37
ukblewis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disgusting that dehumanising Israelis has become a past time of people on this website. Having stared down Hezbollah flags in Israel’s north and having friends living on the border under constant fire many of whom have had damage to their homes, I have no confusion of who Hezbollah is. If you have any soul, how about you speak to the families of the half a million Syrians that Hezbollah helped Assad’s regime to murde…

You accuse me of dehumanizing people while Israel is considering Palestinians just existing, politically offensive. No amount of propaganda and internet censorship can overcome the first live streamed genocide in history, and everybody can see [1] a repeat now in Lebanon, Israels reputation is done. Also criticism of the government of Israel's actions ISN'T dehumanizing Israelis, THAT is insulting, I can be critical…

Israel does not consider Palestinians existing as offensive. Don’t straw-man me

And yet you were not critical of Netanyahu. You chose to be critical of Israelis… Don’t hide behind lies

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