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Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

theguardian.com

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Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#41

Post by Macha »

swarnie wrote: post #32
rXwubXUGAm wrote: post #30

Not necessarily against the idea but 20kph is very slow. It would be super easy to accidentally go over the limit unless you have a cycling computer attached to the bike and constantly monitor your speed.

The exact same argument can be made for cars. Doesn't stop the government wasting half my Saturday and stealing £100 every couple of years. We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.

Cars are heavier, have longer stopping distances, poorer visibility and have speed measuring equipment installed.

20kph is not a difficult speed for an adult on a push bike on a flat surface, so we’re not just talking about ebikes where a mandatory speedometer could make sense

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#42

Post by rcxdude »

david-gpu wrote: post #38
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. Not really. The first motorbikes were bicycles with engines attached. Many current electric motorcycles are bicycles with electric motors attached. If it has a throttle and does not require pedal assist, it is a motorcycle.

A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.

Pedal-assist feels to me like a complete red herring to the actual issues. It's often an arbitrary line but it doesn't make much difference to safety at all. (nor, IMO, do power limits, because it either limits cargo bikes or makes lighter bikes a lot less predictable: I would think an acceleration limit would be a more sensible option).

(build-in speed limits that are significantly below what the average cyclist can achieve by pedaling also seem kind of silly. IMO people might not bypass such limits as much if the limit was put at a more sensible level)

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#43

Post by rcxdude »

aix1 wrote: post #3

I find it mind blowing that ~42% of all cycling deaths are men aged 70+. It obviously confounds fragility with participation but, still, it must mean that people continue to use bikes -- I'm guessing increasingly e-bikes -- well into their old age. (42% is 118/281 in the report.)

I wonder how many of those are just heart attacks triggered by the exertion. A member of my family died that way (though they were not that old, and were relatively fit)

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#44

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pvtmert wrote: post #18

They need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike. I live in Luxembourg and the infrastructure is not as good as the Netherlands. Majority of offenders (in my experience) are delivery guys and teenagers. Where teenagers simply don't care & do reckless things like passing on a big intersection at full speed on a red light, delivery guys do the same things for extra tips. Some of the fat-tire…

> need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike

The only meaningful difference is if there is a motor or not. If there is a motor, it gets a speedometer and you have to stop at stop signs and red lights and follow speed limits. If you are powering yourself, it’s a bit more understandable that you don’t want to stop and start at every intersection. (Though if you have a racing bike, I’d reattach the speedometer and speed-limit requirements.)

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#45

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

Deceleration for the nation!

The question is, would I be allowed to use the road instead, if I go anywhere between 45kph to 60kph, as I tend to do on road-/gravelbikes on flat grounds, without too much head wind?

Thinking about it I even do 45kph with an old 3-speed rear hub and coaster brake, mudguards, dynamo, porter, basket, from 1985 when in Hamburg.

This makes no sense for me. Maybe don't declare bike lanes as such, if they are unfit for the purpose?

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#46

Post by apothegm »

graemep wrote: post #39
globular-toast wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like to think of it in terms of freedom. Everyone has the same freedom to use public highways. The difference is responsibility. If you decide to use a bicycle you have a bit more responsibility than if you walk because they can go faster. If you decide to use a motor vehicle then it should come with a huge amount of extra responsibility. Ultimately you have the added responsibility of ensuring the safety and…

The problem is that there are effective mechanisms for punishing irresponsible drivers (and motor cyclists), but none (at least here in the UK) for punishing irresponsible cyclists. The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians. I see cyclists on the pavement all the time (mostly illegally - and without consequences), I never see a car driving on the pavement (some park on the pavement, which…

> The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians

The solution to this is better cycling infrastructure to separate them, not making cycling less useful by setting ridiculously low speed limits.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#47

Post by apothegm »

raphman wrote: post #12
paddim8 wrote: post #7

20 km/h is nothing. On a bike lane you should be allowed to go normal biking speed

As the article says: this is not a general speed limit but an experimental speed limit for an apparently very crowded area where many kids cycle to school. As someone whose 'normal biking speed' ist typically 30+ km/h on suitable bike lanes, I have no problems with speed limits at critical choke points.

Ah, this bit of crucial context seems to be missing from the entire rest of the discussion. Also makes what otherwise sounds like an uncharacteristically bike-hostile move actually seem fairly reasonable.

Tho tbf one still hopes that they come up with an infrastructure solution that makes it unnecessary in the long run.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#48

Post by huhkerrf »

aix1 wrote: post #6
huhkerrf wrote: post #2

> “This is all about cyclists on motorised bicycles, so I should think you would do something about motorised cyclists. Make a rule for them and not for all cyclists.” There's a certain sub strain of cyclists that want absolutely no rules for them. In a just world, cyclists would have more freedom than cars, but pedestrians would have most of all. But walking through European cities with large cycling cultures can be…

What that woman you quoted said definitely resonates with me. I cycle a lot and the rise of e-bikes has definitely made my experience worse. Those bikes are capable of inficting a lot more damage yet I find that the average skill level of e-bike riders tends to be lower than that of the general cycling population. IMO not a great combination.

Sure, but just like with cars, e-bikes being more dangerous doesn't mean cyclists also don't need to have rules to follow.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#49

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

swarnie wrote: post #32
rXwubXUGAm wrote: post #30

Not necessarily against the idea but 20kph is very slow. It would be super easy to accidentally go over the limit unless you have a cycling computer attached to the bike and constantly monitor your speed.

The exact same argument can be made for cars. Doesn't stop the government wasting half my Saturday and stealing £100 every couple of years. We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.

The issue should really be about kinetic energy and the likelihood of collisions.

With cycles (including e-bikes), the rider is exposed and is likely to get hurt during a collision and this provides a feedback loop so that experienced riders are likely to take care and be very attentive. Cars don't have this feedback loop and are also orders of magnitude heavier, so it's really a different situation.

It's bizarre to require a slower speed limit for a much lighter vehicle, when logic dictates that cars should have the much slower speed limit.

> We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.

As a matter of record, the first modern roads were built specifically for and by cyclists: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/roads-built-cars

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#50

Post by lifestyleguru »

david-gpu wrote: post #38
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. Not really. The first motorbikes were bicycles with engines attached. Many current electric motorcycles are bicycles with electric motors attached. If it has a throttle and does not require pedal assist, it is a motorcycle.

A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.

What's even the point of pedal-assisted bicycles, other than gaming the system and exploiting some legal quirks?

Neither they are fast, powerful, or have reasonable range, yet are already too heavy to pedal only.

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