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A crime doesn't make a child an adult

theatlantic.com

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Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#41

Post by 05 »

rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started.

And Thomas “all men are created equal” Jefferson raped his slaves[0], and then enslaved the resulting children, but we don’t do that nowadays either, because I guess some things changed since 200+years ago?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#42

Post by tormeh »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #5
casey2 wrote: post #3

A minor is a legal fiction it can and will be discarded when convenient. Many people either don't understand or pretend not to understand that order is the only thing preventing so called children from killing and eating you.

Does sentencing children as adults actually deter other children from committing crimes?

Criminal gangs specifically recruit legal minors because they are able to do things legal adults can't: Repeatedly and with impunity violate the law. Whether it's smuggling or assassinations, using legal minors make it all a lot less risky.

Would it stop stupid kids from doing stupid kid stuff? No. Would it make minors less attractive to organized crime? Yes.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#43

Post by n4r9 »

dani__german wrote: post #10

These young offenders are not blank slates whose future actions depend entirely upon how the state treats them. Rhetoric like the Author's has lead to disastrous soft on crime policies that have a death toll associated. Every year that a criminal is incarcerated is a year that they CANNOT kill an innocent citizen, rob a home or store, desecrate or vandalize the community, shoot up fentanyl in the streets, or do any n…

This argument fails if you consider that incarceration makes people more likely to commit crimes when they get out, not less

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#44

Post by mcmoor »

soulbadguy wrote: post #30
JuniperMesos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill) is the only function of incarceration that is guaranteed to work. I agree with you that the US justice system is horrific at rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.…

> Whereas someone who has committed 30 petty thefts and then gets arrested, locked in a cage, and guarded by armed agents of the state, is extremely unlikely to commit another theft as long as he remains locked in the cage. How does that help, if after incarceration that person become a much hardened criminal both because of the lack meaning pathway to integration, and you know spending years locked up with the worst…

The theory is that people commit most of their crimes in their prime age of ~15-30. If you lock someone until out of that age, their crime rate will go down on their own. Whether or not this is cruel is another discussion.

This is actually a problem for rehabilitation studies, since now they have to sanitize this effect out of their data on how much rehabilitation treatment actuality works. This and other flaws have tainted some claims that a rehabilitation process is successful.

https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/prison-and-crime-much-more-...

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#45

Post by mcmoor »

rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.”

This reminds me of a horrific study (that keeps getting repeated over and over!) that claims that child death rate of covid is actually not as low as people thought. Then it turns out that their definition of child is 0-18, and in the data there's a really sharp turn in death rate for age <10, precisely what people already thought.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#46

Post by rayiner »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #24
rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

Young people have a much higher chance of reforming if society puts some effort into it. Juveniles especially need to be put on the right track somehow. Ignoring the problem is definitely not the answer, but neither is focusing on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

Citation needed on that first point. I think the evidence shows the opposite. People who start committing crime earlier are more likely to simply be bad people rather than people who happened to be in bad circumstances.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#47

Post by rayiner »

rendx wrote: post #39
rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> A more rational and less emotional sentencing system would be harsher on teenage offenders This does not align with my understanding of the research, e.g. https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annur... ? > "Unfortunately, so far, the existing empirical work has not had a central place in policy, legislation, and political discourse (Loughran 2019, Nelken & Hamilton 2022). Unsurprisingly, scholars h…

As I understand it, the research you’re talking about is about the potential deterrent or rehabilitative effect of punishment. I’m talking about the effect of removing people from society during the ages when they are most likely to commit violent crime.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#48

Post by [deleted] »

soulbadguy wrote: post #30
JuniperMesos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill) is the only function of incarceration that is guaranteed to work. I agree with you that the US justice system is horrific at rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.…

> Whereas someone who has committed 30 petty thefts and then gets arrested, locked in a cage, and guarded by armed agents of the state, is extremely unlikely to commit another theft as long as he remains locked in the cage. How does that help, if after incarceration that person become a much hardened criminal both because of the lack meaning pathway to integration, and you know spending years locked up with the worst…

[deleted]

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#49

Post by rayiner »

bsder wrote: post #19
rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> The article’s focus on moral culpability also overlooks the key purpose of the justice system: protecting society from criminals. I do NOT concede that as the KEY purpose. And when you call "protecting society from criminals" the key purpose of the justice system you wind up with the horribly broken mess that is the US justice system. Yes, A purpose of the justice system is to remove from society those who cannot b…

> Yes, A purpose of the justice system is to remove from society those who cannot be trusted

Agreed.

> But another purpose of the justice system should be to rehabilitate those who can be

Why? Especially if it comes at the expense of the first purpose?

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#50

Post by paulryanrogers »

chucksmash wrote: post #15
paulryanrogers wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does sentencing children as adults actually deter other children from committing crimes?

What if there is value to society in removing antisocial individuals from the social compact, whether others are deterred or not?

Isn't that what juvenile halls are for?
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