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A crime doesn't make a child an adult

theatlantic.com

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Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#21

Post by warumdarum »

bsder wrote: post #17
paulryanrogers wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does sentencing children as adults actually deter other children from committing crimes?

No. For both children and adults, sentencing strictness only deters a SINGLE category of crime--white collar. Most other forms of crime, especially violent, are almost completely insensitive to the harshness of any possible punishment sentence. If a brain is sufficiently broken that it no longer has the limiter against harming another human being, prison sentences won't do anything to fix that.

No true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador

Turns out it works.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#23

Post by bsder »

warumdarum wrote: post #21
bsder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. For both children and adults, sentencing strictness only deters a SINGLE category of crime--white collar. Most other forms of crime, especially violent, are almost completely insensitive to the harshness of any possible punishment sentence. If a brain is sufficiently broken that it no longer has the limiter against harming another human being, prison sentences won't do anything to fix that.

No true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador Turns out it works.

Flagged as AI Slop Bot.

Wikipedia article makes no obvious mention of correlation between sentencing and deterrence. Linked article, in fact, demonstrates that alternative programs provided almost all the improvement.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#24

Post by seanmcdirmid »

rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

Young people have a much higher chance of reforming if society puts some effort into it. Juveniles especially need to be put on the right track somehow. Ignoring the problem is definitely not the answer, but neither is focusing on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#25

Post by soulbadguy »

rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and children when it comes to brain development. Historically, adolescents were treated like adults.

Looking at the past for wisdom on how to treat young adult/people is very dangerous...

> People who start engaging in criminal conduct at an earlier age more likely to engage in criminal behavior as adults

this is not quite what the citation means. I am also very curious on how these study correct for cofactors .People who start a life of crime early are probably not comming from the best conditions in term of life circonstances. Which in it self is also a strong predictor.

> A more rational and less emotional sentencing system would be harsher on teenage offenders while reducing sentences overall.

No, that would be the fear based emotional response. The ration response would be to simply measure whether or not harsher sentencing have a better outcome. Instead of prehemtively jailing people based on dubious stats.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#26

Post by soulbadguy »

dani__german wrote: post #10

These young offenders are not blank slates whose future actions depend entirely upon how the state treats them. Rhetoric like the Author's has lead to disastrous soft on crime policies that have a death toll associated. Every year that a criminal is incarcerated is a year that they CANNOT kill an innocent citizen, rob a home or store, desecrate or vandalize the community, shoot up fentanyl in the streets, or do any n…

> Every year that a criminal is incarcerated is a year that they CANNOT kill an innocent citizen, rob a home or store, desecrate or vandalize the community, shoot up fentanyl in the streets, or do any number of things.

Why stop at criminal, this also true for non-criminal; Let's just jail everyone, then we will all be safer.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#27

Post by JuniperMesos »

bsder wrote: post #19
rayiner wrote: post #12

I wish people would stop using the word “child” in an effort to minimize criminal behavior by young adults. A 16 or 17 year old isn’t a “child.” The Marquis de Lafayette and James Manor were just 18 when the revolutionary war started. Societies going back to ancient times ascribed significant responsibility to teenagers. And in modern times, there is a scientific basis for distinguishing between adolescents and child…

> The article’s focus on moral culpability also overlooks the key purpose of the justice system: protecting society from criminals. I do NOT concede that as the KEY purpose. And when you call "protecting society from criminals" the key purpose of the justice system you wind up with the horribly broken mess that is the US justice system. Yes, A purpose of the justice system is to remove from society those who cannot b…

Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill) is the only function of incarceration that is guaranteed to work. I agree with you that the US justice system is horrific at rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.

Whereas someone who has committed 30 petty thefts and then gets arrested, locked in a cage, and guarded by armed agents of the state, is extremely unlikely to commit another theft as long as he remains locked in the cage.

And he's also extremely unlikely to get shot to death by e.g. a store owner trying to protect his property from theft - another important function of the criminal justice system is protecting criminals from ordinary people using violence against criminals in order to protect their own lives or property.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#28

Post by soulbadguy »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #16
chucksmash wrote: post #14

The article is so facile. > Yet crime-data analysts have noted that Louisiana’s crime wave was in keeping with a national trend This is meant to be mitigating? What is this thought process? Who in their right mind is like "okay, a group of people broke into your home at night but your state shouldn't have been so hard on them for what ensued because akshually it was part of a whole nationwide trend at the time." The…

> The modern right absolutely thrives on the fact that so many mostly reasonable people can't see that "play stupid games win stupid prizes" is just another side of the "tolerate anything but intolerance" coin This is something that drives me up the wall. I'm a pretty lefty guy, mostly, but I am very irritated by "my side" being so weak on crime. I get it, we don't want to ruin people's lives for being a stupid kid d…

> but I am very irritated by "my side" being so weak on crime.

Weakness on crime is not a left vs right thing.It's mostly about which kind of crime each side is soft on.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#29

Post by bsder »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #27
bsder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article’s focus on moral culpability also overlooks the key purpose of the justice system: protecting society from criminals. I do NOT concede that as the KEY purpose. And when you call "protecting society from criminals" the key purpose of the justice system you wind up with the horribly broken mess that is the US justice system. Yes, A purpose of the justice system is to remove from society those who cannot b…

Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill) is the only function of incarceration that is guaranteed to work. I agree with you that the US justice system is horrific at rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.…

> Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill)

And this is another problem--your "justice system" should NOT be where you place your mentally-ill--they belong in a (possibly secure) medical facility and not with rank-and-file criminals. This is yet one more issue with the US system.

Re: A crime doesn't make a child an adult

#30

Post by soulbadguy »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #27
bsder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article’s focus on moral culpability also overlooks the key purpose of the justice system: protecting society from criminals. I do NOT concede that as the KEY purpose. And when you call "protecting society from criminals" the key purpose of the justice system you wind up with the horribly broken mess that is the US justice system. Yes, A purpose of the justice system is to remove from society those who cannot b…

Protecting society from criminals (or the violently and severely mentally-ill) is the only function of incarceration that is guaranteed to work. I agree with you that the US justice system is horrific at rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.…

> Whereas someone who has committed 30 petty thefts and then gets arrested, locked in a cage, and guarded by armed agents of the state, is extremely unlikely to commit another theft as long as he remains locked in the cage.

How does that help, if after incarceration that person become a much hardened criminal both because of the lack meaning pathway to integration, and you know spending years locked up with the worst of society.

> but we don't really have a good understanding of what specific people can and cannot be rehabilitated, or how to go about actually effectively doing the rehabilitation.

Then let's work on that.

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