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Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

news.northwestern.edu

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Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#41

Post by Qem »

octoberfranklin wrote: post #32
Qem wrote: post #7

> Nearly two-thirds of Americans with Alzheimer’s disease (AD) are women, but the reasons why women are more vulnerable are still not fully understood. Scientists have long theorized that the loss of estrogen after menopause may reduce the brain’s natural protection against memory loss and neurodegeneration. The part that makes no sense for me is men ending with smaller rates of dementia, given they had much less est…

This fails to control for the fact that women, on average, live to older ages before dying.

IIRC in other studies where it's controlled for age, a difference still remains.

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#42

Post by zahlman »

Qem wrote: post #7

> Nearly two-thirds of Americans with Alzheimer’s disease (AD) are women, but the reasons why women are more vulnerable are still not fully understood. Scientists have long theorized that the loss of estrogen after menopause may reduce the brain’s natural protection against memory loss and neurodegeneration. The part that makes no sense for me is men ending with smaller rates of dementia, given they had much less est…

> The part that makes no sense for me is men ending with smaller rates of dementia, given they had much less estrogen to begin with. Men have less incidence of dementia.

My understanding was that they have lower incidence specifically of Alzheimer's, but greater incidence of other forms of dementia.

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#43

Post by gavinray »

Aurornis wrote: post #36
gavinray wrote: post #11

Estrogen (specifically Estradiol, E2) is one of the most important systemic hormones in both men and women I've spent a significant amount of my free time for the last 15 years studying androgen physiology and self-experimentation. Here are a few facts about estradiol that others might find surprising: 1. E2 acts as a master metabolic/energy regulator in humans. ER-alpha and pan-ER agonists are being developed for ob…

Estrogen becomes a real problem for people experimenting with anabolic steroids or even taking some of the TRT regimens which go past replacement doses and into performance enhancing territory. Testosterone is converted into estradiol by aromatase, so people who boost their testosterone up to high levels get more estradiol as a result. As an aside: Aromatase is present in body fat, so higher body fat will produce mor…

This is anecdata, but as someone who has used exogenous testosterone for the past 10 years, I feel significantly better with low T + high E2 than high T + low E2.

I've had E2 levels as high as the low end of female ovulatory range (see attached image at bottom) and felt fantastic, though personal response varies.

I stopped using aromatase inhibitors after the first few years due to having a worse sense of wellbeing compared to using none at all.

Now, I typically let my E2 sit around 60-90pg/mL (roughly x2-3 upper end of male reference range), which is where lands on 200mg/wk Testosterone, when doing TRT.

https://i.imgur.com/b3MjwDh.png

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#44

Post by rirkrkrkfkfkfkf »

brokensegue wrote: post #33
throw8394jrjr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just a bro science, sorry. Correlation and simple statistics is not real scientific method, and does not fit into modern research!

Then maybe caveat your posts with that

[flagged]

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#45

Post by rirkrkrkfkfkfkf »

mirabilis wrote: post #40
bethekidyouwant wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you’re raising children when you’re 65.

Probably not, but I thought we were discussing all related preventative activities for the full span of the comfortable life.

[dead]

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#46

Post by gavinray »

nostrademons wrote: post #25
ranger207 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re #2, in the mtf trans experience high estrogen and low testosterone are correlated with low libido, with some individuals even temporarily stopping antiandrogen medications in order to get some back

Yeah, your comment squares with (and the GP's point #2 contradicts) what I learned in my college Science & Gender class, which was a combined neuroscience/psychology offering where we read a bunch of papers. Most of them supported that testosterone was the primary driver of libido in both men and women , with higher T levels corresponding to higher sexual desire and lower T levels corresponding to the opposite.

E2 as a libido regulator is a cross-species conserved effect.

The landmark study in humans for this is the Finkelstein 2013 paper [0] -- they gave humans Testosterone with and without AI to block aromatization to E2. In the AI group, sexual desire and erectile function declined markedly across the board, even when they were given high doses of testosterone.

Then you have studies like [1] and [2]:

  > "Both estradiol (E) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) contribute to the activation of mating, although E is more important for copulation and DHT, for genital reflexes."

  > "We show here that a single injection of estradiol (500 μg/kg) rapidly and transiently activates copulatory behavior in castrated male quail pre-treated with a dose of testosterone behaviorally ineffective by itself."
The underlying theme is that across animal species, estrogens are regulators of sexual desire/libido while androgens support the necessary biological functions (erection) required.

[0] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1952538/

[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01664...

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#47

Post by Aurornis »

gavinray wrote: post #43
Aurornis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Estrogen becomes a real problem for people experimenting with anabolic steroids or even taking some of the TRT regimens which go past replacement doses and into performance enhancing territory. Testosterone is converted into estradiol by aromatase, so people who boost their testosterone up to high levels get more estradiol as a result. As an aside: Aromatase is present in body fat, so higher body fat will produce mor…

This is anecdata, but as someone who has used exogenous testosterone for the past 10 years, I feel significantly better with low T + high E2 than high T + low E2. I've had E2 levels as high as the low end of female ovulatory range (see attached image at bottom) and felt fantastic, though personal response varies. I stopped using aromatase inhibitors after the first few years due to having a worse sense of wellbeing c…

That image you linked shows a testosterone level 9X higher than the upper limit. I'm assuming that's unrelated to the values in your post because there is no way that 200mg/week produces those numbers.

Given that those levels are crazy high, you should probably mention that your experience is in the context of a lot of extreme hormone manipulation. Who knows what your body's baseline even is any more. I wouldn't expect your experiences to extend to normal people. I also really, really would not recommend that any men try to keep their E2 at 3X the upper end of the reference range.

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#48

Post by gavinray »

ranger207 wrote: post #15
gavinray wrote: post #11

Estrogen (specifically Estradiol, E2) is one of the most important systemic hormones in both men and women I've spent a significant amount of my free time for the last 15 years studying androgen physiology and self-experimentation. Here are a few facts about estradiol that others might find surprising: 1. E2 acts as a master metabolic/energy regulator in humans. ER-alpha and pan-ER agonists are being developed for ob…

Re #2, in the mtf trans experience high estrogen and low testosterone are correlated with low libido, with some individuals even temporarily stopping antiandrogen medications in order to get some back

Unfortunately, anti-androgens have myriad effects beyond basic T suppression.

There are two primary drivers behind why anti-androgens would cause loss of libido beyond effect on T:

1) AA's cause androgen receptor blockade systemically. This blocks action at the AR that would be residual across systems from adrenal production. Most important for libido are the AR activity that occurs inside of neurons and astrocytes in the brain

2) AA's have a two-punch effects on the Prolactin/Dopamine system + Progesterone system. Chronically elevated prolactin causes down-regulation of dopamine, which by itself is enough to kill libido. Progestins modulate GABA, which can cause "flat affect" and "emotional flatlining".

The combo punch of neuronal/adrenal AR blockade + Prolactin/Dopamine dysregulation + GABA dysregulation would require a miracle to have preserved libido on.

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#49

Post by gavinray »

Aurornis wrote: post #47
gavinray wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is anecdata, but as someone who has used exogenous testosterone for the past 10 years, I feel significantly better with low T + high E2 than high T + low E2. I've had E2 levels as high as the low end of female ovulatory range (see attached image at bottom) and felt fantastic, though personal response varies. I stopped using aromatase inhibitors after the first few years due to having a worse sense of wellbeing c…

That image you linked shows a testosterone level 9X higher than the upper limit. I'm assuming that's unrelated to the values in your post because there is no way that 200mg/week produces those numbers. Given that those levels are crazy high, you should probably mention that your experience is in the context of a lot of extreme hormone manipulation. Who knows what your body's baseline even is any more. I wouldn't expe…

My body's "baseline" is zero, my Leydig's cells no longer function to produce FSH/TSH, which is the expected outcome of a decade of AAS use.

Bloodwork from no Testosterone usage puts my T around 90ng/dL, or the upper end of female reference range, and my E2 at the bottom end of male range.

Hence, TRT as a medical necessity.

  > I'm assuming that's unrelated to the values in your post because there is no way that 200mg/week produces those numbers.
Yes, those bloods were on 1,500mg/wk.

  > I also really, really would not recommend that any men try to keep their E2 at 3X the upper end of the reference range.
Certainly not unless your T levels are proportionally x2-3 reference range. The T:E2 ratio is wildly important.

Re: Memory decline after menopause linked to loss of estrogen production in brain

#50

Post by nerdsniper »

gavinray wrote: post #43
Aurornis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Estrogen becomes a real problem for people experimenting with anabolic steroids or even taking some of the TRT regimens which go past replacement doses and into performance enhancing territory. Testosterone is converted into estradiol by aromatase, so people who boost their testosterone up to high levels get more estradiol as a result. As an aside: Aromatase is present in body fat, so higher body fat will produce mor…

This is anecdata, but as someone who has used exogenous testosterone for the past 10 years, I feel significantly better with low T + high E2 than high T + low E2. I've had E2 levels as high as the low end of female ovulatory range (see attached image at bottom) and felt fantastic, though personal response varies. I stopped using aromatase inhibitors after the first few years due to having a worse sense of wellbeing c…

Same here. My cis-male body and brain really does strongly prefer high E2 levels. Just below “growing breast tissue” seems to be the sweet spot. Testosterone / DHT levels matter much less.

Raising E2 a bit basically cured lifelong suicidal ideation and major depressive disorder for me overnight. And it’s been working for 6 years now.

Libido is still fine - my girlfriends are satisfied unless i’m having a very stressful week.

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