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Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

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Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#41

Post by wkjagt »

stabbles wrote: post #5
riffraff wrote: post #3

It seems reasonable to expect that some behaviors transcend culture and go back to instinct (tho expectations often conflict with reality) which probably is not even human specific. IIRC Konrad Lorenz pointed out in Solomon's Ring that rooks will exhibit "infantile behavior" when grooming in a mated couple which, well, humans do it when they cuddle too. As an aside: my favorite italian gesture is "tasty" (put index o…

The Dutch version of this is to wave at the cheek.

I am Dutch and moved to Canada about 20 years ago (my wife is Canadian). Imagine our first meal at my new in-laws, and me not speaking much French yet (we're in Quebec), and still wanting to show my appreciation for the meal...

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#42

Post by vanderZwan »

gobdovan wrote: post #37
vanderZwan wrote: post #33

There's a hypothesis that sign language evolved before vocal languages, and that the latter "took over" as the default because it's energetically much more efficient. There's lots of circumstantial evidence but of course it's impossible to ever conclusively prove. This feels like another data point in favor of it.

As stated, this is too vague to be much of a hypothesis. Animals, including humans, communicate multimodally, so gesture and vocalisation are not mutually exclusive evolutionary stages. To claim that one evolved before the other, you'd need to define some relevant markers, such as grammar, cultural transmission or some anatomical adaptation.

Well I wasn't about to spend hours looking up sources and details specifying this hypothesis. All I remember now is that it's one that's taken seriously.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#43

Post by PeterStuer »

Having worked a lott with both Dutch and Italians, I can definitly recognise where this is coming from. That said, there most certainly are more differences. Imho if you would use AI to animate a dutch teacher with the gesticulation of the average italian teacher, people would not rate this average dutch teacher gesticulation but believable Dutch gesticulstion on the more 'energetic' end of the spectrum.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#44

Post by nedzynski »

And here I was thinking that maybe there's something unique about Italians and Dutch way of explaining things to children... but this study was done only on Dutch and Italians. There were no other nationalities/cultures tested for comparison. Maybe if we tested all/most cultures we'd see the same patterns of using hands to explain things to children. Low signal.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#46

Post by NoSalt »

nedzynski wrote: post #44

And here I was thinking that maybe there's something unique about Italians and Dutch way of explaining things to children... but this study was done only on Dutch and Italians. There were no other nationalities/cultures tested for comparison. Maybe if we tested all/most cultures we'd see the same patterns of using hands to explain things to children. Low signal.

They chose those two particular groups for a reason.

> "The two groups were chosen because previous research suggests Italians come from a more 'gesture-rich' culture, while Dutch speakers tend to use fewer representational gestures overall."

They took two very dissimilar groups when it comes to hand gestures.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#47

Post by nixon_why69 »

gobdovan wrote: post #37
vanderZwan wrote: post #33

There's a hypothesis that sign language evolved before vocal languages, and that the latter "took over" as the default because it's energetically much more efficient. There's lots of circumstantial evidence but of course it's impossible to ever conclusively prove. This feels like another data point in favor of it.

As stated, this is too vague to be much of a hypothesis. Animals, including humans, communicate multimodally, so gesture and vocalisation are not mutually exclusive evolutionary stages. To claim that one evolved before the other, you'd need to define some relevant markers, such as grammar, cultural transmission or some anatomical adaptation.

They stated in their comment that they can never have proof and it's a bit of persuasive whimsy. This is before writing.

I find it intuitively persuasive, others may differ, but if you're going to object then keep it on vibes as we all will never have evidence.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#48

Post by ZenoArrow »

sph wrote: post #36
agiacalone wrote: post #4

As a Sicilian and university computer science lecturer, I can say that hand gestures are my primary way of communicating concepts. So much so that the old joke holds true. How do you stop an Italian from talking? Tell them to sit on their hands.

I am Italian as well and love the joke, but it always makes it sound like any other culture doesn’t use their hands to convey meaning, which is obviously false. I do not notice a large difference between a northern Italian like me and any other American speaker, for instance. Of course there will be a noticeable increase in gesticulation in an angry southern Italian person compared to a mild-mannered Englishman droni…

> Of course there will be a noticeable increase in gesticulation in an angry southern Italian person compared to a mild-mannered Englishman droning about philosophy.

> Perhaps the difference lies not in the amount of gesturing, but in the heightened emotions of us southern Europeans.

As someone that has familial ties to both England and Sicily, although people on average are more overtly expressive in Southern Europe, the English are certainly not a monolith. For every "mild-mannered Englishman" there's also an equal amount of very "expressive" people, for example the meme of English tourists being absolute menaces in Southern Europe (especially Spain) does not come from the "mild-mannered" crowd, and I'm sure there are people who put up with these tourists that wish they were less expressive than the locals.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#50

Post by epolanski »

agiacalone wrote: post #4

As a Sicilian and university computer science lecturer, I can say that hand gestures are my primary way of communicating concepts. So much so that the old joke holds true. How do you stop an Italian from talking? Tell them to sit on their hands.

No joke, as an Italian after reading your post I tried to explain something to my SO at lunch and it felt so unnatural, like being chained.
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