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BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

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Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#41

Post by rmc »

coolestuk wrote: post #8
thedudemabry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely an interesting development. While I'm saddened to see a Ruby conference canceled with a full roster of qualified speakers, I'm happier to see the pendulum on this side of perfect balance than the alternative. This problem has clearer and more positive strategies than its opposite. Edit: Whoa. I did more than 10 seconds of research and this situation is more fucked than I snap-judged. My heart goes…

This shambles could only happen in Britain. Senior politicians get accused of being paedophiles by journalists with no evidence. Politicians routinely steal from public coffers, and don't even lose their place in Parliament (even though some were sent to prison). The country is awash with video surveillance, yet trying to get the police to respond to a crime report is like swimming upstream. A christian preacher who…

Political correctness had taken hold in local government by the early 1980s

I must point out Section 28 in the UK ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28 ). It was passed in 1988, and banned local authorities from "promoting homosexuality". This was wildly interpreted as banning any mention of homosexuality in schools (amoung other things). It's the height of the AIDS epidemic and you can't teach gay kids in school how to have safe sex, and you can't tell them it'll OK to be gay, you can't have any books that have gay characters. It was repealed in 2003.

Political incorrectness and discrimination were enshrined in local government law in the 1980s.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#42

Post by aes256 »

saraid216 wrote: post #32
Wintamute wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agre…

Actually, most modern academic work on racism goes by his latter definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological

Of course, if sociologists accepted the former definition, they wouldn't have anything to talk about.

Conflating the two definitions and describing people as 'racist' for re-enforcing racial imbalances in society is disingenuous.

A lot of people oppose affirmative action (thus earning the label 'racist' according to the latter definition) not because they are prejudiced, but simply because they do not believe in the efficacy of the process.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#43

Post by aes256 »

rmc wrote: post #37
brianchu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that having conference speakers who happen to be disproportionate in race does not immediately translate to racism. To say that the composition of a group of speakers is "designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races" simply based off of the proportion of races of people in the panel is a logical leap that is not necessarily warranted.

If you're in a under-represented group seeing that "all people who do Ruby/Tech/IT/knitting/nursing/$ACTIVITY are members of $OTHER_GROUP" can be just another reminder that your group shouldn't be here, that you'll stick out, that you'll be the different one here. We have numerous expressions in the English language saying that lots of little things can build up: The straw that broke the camel's back, death by a thou…

I can't fathom why racial minorities would not feel welcome at such a conference. Do they think people are going to be surprised that they are in attendance, disapprove of them being there, or look down on them?

It's a programming conference, not a meeting of the KKK.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#44

Post by rmc »

Wintamute wrote: post #26
rmc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the…

I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agre…

If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions

This is not my definition, there are loads of people with this definition.

Rational discussion can only occur once terms have been agreed and defined

Agreed, that's why I made this point. Too often people are only aware of the first definition.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#45

Post by rmc »

objclxt wrote: post #19
coolestuk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shambles could only happen in Britain. Senior politicians get accused of being paedophiles by journalists with no evidence. Politicians routinely steal from public coffers, and don't even lose their place in Parliament (even though some were sent to prison). The country is awash with video surveillance, yet trying to get the police to respond to a crime report is like swimming upstream. A christian preacher who…

I disagree: it could have happened in many Western countries. The problem with a 'it's political correctness gone mad!' argument is it ignores the context in which those laws were enacted. Racism and sexism were systematic and endemic in the UK during much of the 20th century. You say that "political correctness had taken hold in local government by the early 1980s", but you don't mention that the reason for this was…

Racism and sexism were systematic and endemic in the UK during much of the 20th century.

A UK constituancy seat in 1960s was won by a conservative candidate against the Labour candidate, on the slogan: "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour" http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/apr/27/race.world2

But no, apparently it's "gone too far" when you can't say that anymore!

the UK doesn't have explicit free speech protection

Debatable. it doesn't have a written constitution, yes, however it has signed up various treaties that guarantee free speech (e.g. Charter of Fundamental Rights).

Regardless, all countries have limits on "free speech" (even USA). Many EU countries put a limit on free speech and don't include very racist vile speech as protected speech. This doesn't mean they have "no free speech".

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#46

Post by mduerksen »

rmc wrote: post #14
obstacle1 wrote: post #12

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone scream…

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the…

It might not be racist, but could be ideologically charged.

The mere observation of an uneven distribution is not enough evidence for a power imbalance. It could also just be caused by deviation of interests, which would be totally fine.

Power imbalances cannot be reliably detected from the outside, so I won't comment on the ruby conf case.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#47

Post by aes256 »

mseebach2 wrote: post #30
rmc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political Correctness is great if you are a minority. It means you have similar rights to the powerful group. As a gay man, I know I can mention the gender of my spouse (male!) in a workplace environment without being worried about being fired (for example). Straight people have always (more or less) been able to mention their spouse in the workplace without fear of repercussion. Now I can too! Political Correctness…

That's not political correctness, that's anti-discrimination. Political correctness is "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending non-Christians. It's idiotic because for those not celebrating Christmas, indeed those that might be offended by mentions of Christmas, there is no season to celebrate. Don't send them a card . "Seasons greetings" is not "culture neutral", it's a code for Christ…

"Anti-discrimination" is part of political correctness.

The example you provide falls under both categories, and it falls under political correctness precisely because it would be discriminatory to celebrate one religious festival without celebrating all of them. It is not politically "correct" to partake in discrimination.

I don't know if you're from the UK, but society today is highly secular. A British Humanist Association poll last year had 65% of respondents answer the question "Are you religious?" negatively. Of those who claim to be religious, most do not attend church on a regular basis, or take part in other religious rituals. Not to mention many of them are not Christian.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#48

Post by Wintamute »

saraid216 wrote: post #32
Wintamute wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agre…

Actually, most modern academic work on racism goes by his latter definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological

No, he was suggesting a definition of racism that called anti-racist affirmative action as "not racist", and attempts to undermine affirmative action as "racist". That seems rather specialised to me, and at best a convolution on top of the sociological definition you linked to. Also, most modern academic work != a wikipedia link, do you have any other sources?

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#49

Post by josteink »

Minority/Majority are only terms which makes sense in a specific context. This context can be gender, can be race, can be nationality, age, experience, school of thought, sexual orientation, preference in food, preference in code-editor etc.

If you find yourself in a "minority", it's because you have chosen to identify yourself with something which puts you on the outside.

People calling for discrimination in cases like this often have chosen to identify themselves with a metric which puts them in the minority (race, gender) instead of one which wouldn't (nationality, age, experience, school of thought, etc).

To me it seems like a personal, deliberate choice to weight your identity in on things which are not important to the subject instead of those which are. And I find it hard to sympathize with.

You're not suffering. You're not living under South African apartheid rule. You are not being oppressed. In fact, you are using your freedom, which you do have, to cause a shitfest over statistical anomalies or tendencies.

Cry me a river.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#50

Post by mseebach2 »

aes256 wrote: post #47
mseebach2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not political correctness, that's anti-discrimination. Political correctness is "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending non-Christians. It's idiotic because for those not celebrating Christmas, indeed those that might be offended by mentions of Christmas, there is no season to celebrate. Don't send them a card . "Seasons greetings" is not "culture neutral", it's a code for Christ…

"Anti-discrimination" is part of political correctness. The example you provide falls under both categories, and it falls under political correctness precisely because it would be discriminatory to celebrate one religious festival without celebrating all of them. It is not politically "correct" to partake in discrimination. I don't know if you're from the UK, but society today is highly secular. A British Humanist As…

I meant anti-discrimination as the law that keeps the GP from being fired for admitting he's gay.

As for the number of Brits being religious, I think it's easy to conclude that more than 35% of Brits celebrate Christmas. Given the origin of the poll, I would not be surprised if the question was phrased very narrowly.

It's not discriminatory to celebrate Christmas by default if your company is in a culture that predominantly observe Christmas. It would be discriminatory to make special arrangement for time off on Christmas, but not accommodating seasonal holiday requests from Muslims on Eid and Hindus on Diwali.

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