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Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

ziglang.org

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Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#41

Post by Matl »

gethly wrote: post #20
norman784 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have my doubts on Jai, besides being built towards game development, from what I read/watched about it, it has 2 or 3 meta programming capabilities, like comptime, macros, etc it feels too much of the same, also Jai is not built towards correctness or safety, John mentality is that he knows what he is doing, so he doesn’t need those guardrails and he wants instead expressiveness. Also Jai is like C++ in complexity,…

Remember that it was Jai that inspired all these new languages. When you talk about the capabilities like comptime, that's all from Jai and why John no longer does public presentations(as people keep stealing his unfinished ideas). Your comment about gamedev focus makes no sense as that it the most hardcore segment of all the programming there is. So if a language is good for gamedev, it's good for everything else -…

> Remember that it was Jai that inspired all these new languages.

Not really. Rust was a thing long before Jai.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#42

Post by pjmlp »

ofalkaed wrote: post #29
pjmlp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck with that, it is basically Modula-2 with C like syntax, and we aren't even getting into the whole ecosystem that it is missing on. Any C++ or C replacement will need to win the earths of mainstream OS and game console vendors, otherwise it will remain yet another wannabe candidate. Those have already their own languages, alongside their own C and C++ compilers, and are only now starting to warm up to Rust.…

So no one should even try because they will never win over all of the C/C++ crowd so are doomed to fail and forever to be a wannabe? I think Andrew has gone about things in a good way, going back to C and exploiting hindsight, not trying to offer everything as quickly as possible. Extend C but keep C interoperability and do both better than C++ instead of trying to be the next big thing and he goes about it in a very…

One should try, while being aware of the realities of language adoption.

I disagree Zig is that great deal of a language, it would have been if we were talking about 1990's programming language ecosystem, not in 21st century.

Use-after-free problems should not be something we still need to worry about, when tooling like PurifyPlus trace back to 1992.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#43

Post by pjmlp »

steeve wrote: post #40
pjmlp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for Tiger Beetle customers and the few ones using Bun, what traction?

ZML

What is even that? Not bothering to Google for it, which shows how irrelevant it is.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#44

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

Pay08 wrote: post #38
zarzavat wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine Zig ever becoming stable and conservative. Even at 10 years old, it's still as beta as ever. At some point the churn becomes part of the culture. Not a complaint, just an observation. I like that they are trying new things.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I do think there's a bit of scope creep, especially with the LLVM replacement stuff, but I don't think it's bad enough for the language to never come out. Most notable languages have at least one large corporate sponsor behind them, Zig doesn't.

I’m a casual user and the 0.16 changes scare me. I tried multiple attempts now, even with full LLM support to upgrade and the result is just a) painful and b) not very good. I have high doubts that the current IO system of 0.16 will make it for another release given the consequences of their choices.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#46

Post by pjmlp »

WJW wrote: post #15
gethly wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Kinda weird to blame Zig for not being at 1.0 yet while Jai is still in closed beta after 11 years. Meanwhile Zig is being in used in big-ish projects all over while Jai has... a single game engine? Jai looks cool but it's far far FAR behind and losing ground.

The fallacy of that argument would be if its author would seek adoption, however like Naughty Dog with their Lisp based language, John has no plans to have Jai win world adoption beyone his game engine.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#48

Post by LunaSea »

gethly wrote: post #20
norman784 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have my doubts on Jai, besides being built towards game development, from what I read/watched about it, it has 2 or 3 meta programming capabilities, like comptime, macros, etc it feels too much of the same, also Jai is not built towards correctness or safety, John mentality is that he knows what he is doing, so he doesn’t need those guardrails and he wants instead expressiveness. Also Jai is like C++ in complexity,…

Remember that it was Jai that inspired all these new languages. When you talk about the capabilities like comptime, that's all from Jai and why John no longer does public presentations(as people keep stealing his unfinished ideas). Your comment about gamedev focus makes no sense as that it the most hardcore segment of all the programming there is. So if a language is good for gamedev, it's good for everything else -…

> as nowadays John's name will carry more weight than Zig could ever have.

I'm sorry but Zig has been used to create actual production software for many companies whereas Jai has been used maybe once for a mediocre game.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#49

Post by rurban »

BonusPlay wrote: post #5
gethly wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Instead of debating for years (like other languages), zig just tries things out. Worst case you can always rollback changes. IMO best APIs and designs are those that are battle tested by end users, not won in an argument war during committee meetings. This makes zig unique. It's fun to use and it stays fresh. You can always just stay on older version of zig. But if you choose to update to newer version, you get new t…

> Instead of debating for years (like other languages), zig just tries things out.

Good

> Worst case you can always rollback changes.

No, you cannot. People will leave in masses. In perl they announced experiments with a mandatory use experimental :feature. You couldnt publish modules with those, or else you are at risk.

This made perl exciting and fresh. Python on the other hand constantly broke API's, and had to invent package version locks and "safe" venv's. Which became unsafe of course.

Languages and stdlib are not playgrounds. We see what came out of it with C and C++ with horrible mistakes getting standardized.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#50

Post by Fraterkes »

gethly wrote: post #33
Phil_Latio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why John no longer does public presentations(as people keep stealing his unfinished ideas) That's your opinion or you have a source for that?

he said it in a video, i think it was in the recent wookash podcast. although you might fing a short clip of the segment somewhere.

The idea of languages "stealing" ideas from each other is not something anyone building a language cares about. I'll just charitably assume you've completly misinterpreted something he said.
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