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Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#41

Post by Gibbon1 »

lisper wrote: post #28

Apparently no one has mentioned the Vasa here yet, so I'll do it: https://www.vasamuseet.se/en Not quite as old but preserved almost intact and now restored on dry land. Well worth a visit.

There is the C.A. Thayer which is a restored lumber ship.

https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyculture/c-a-thayer.htm

The ship they found "measures about 92 feet long, 30 feet wide and 20 feet tall. Experts estimate its cargo capacity was 300 tons"

The C.A. Thayer is 219 feet long, 36 feet wide and carried 453 tons.

Random off hand thought is the big difference between these two is the Thayer was longer. A problem I've read with long wooden ships is the flexing can open the seams between the planks to open up requiring the crew to bail water.

  Off Orford Ness she sprang a leak
  Hear her poor old timbers creak
  Pump you blighters, pump or drown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFgAeXA0dJM

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#42

Post by toolazytologin »

shiroiuma wrote: post #38
dyauspitr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can appreciate their troubles. How is someone supposed to pay for all the overhead that goes into research and writing these articles without a source of income. People also seem dead against subscriptions. The only way that seems to work is appealing to the LCD and raking in stream bucks but not all media/literature, especially the valuable kind, is conducive to that model.

>How is someone supposed to pay for all the overhead that goes into research and writing these articles without a source of income. I'm not sure, but we've been trying the online advertising model for a few decades now, and it's been terrible. Pop-ups, pop-unders, malware, I could go on and on. At some point it's fine to just say "no" to the advertisers after so much abuse. Also, there's nothing stopping a website fr…

The site hosting the ads seems like a red herring? Do you mean they could sell or design their own ads? If so, that seems like a difficult proposition.

If we accept that most people won’t pay a subscription, and take ads off the table as an option, then I can only think of 2 other options:

* charitable patrons (this is a thing, but I guess not effective enough?) * selling other products to subsidize the free content

These both appear to have obvious problems and for a dubious goal of making another party subsidize the visitor’s consumption cost.

Having the visitor cover their own cost seems reasonable. What currency do they have other than money or attention? Maybe a small work problem that provides an abstracted service to a separate payer (a la reCAPTCHA, but for $).

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#43

Post by justinclift »

monero-xmr wrote: post #35
nickpinkston wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US context that's largely true, with the government providing useful regulations after the fact (allowing national corporations, railroad right-of-way law, etc.). The exception being guys like JP Morgan who organized industry cartels that acted as private "central planners", part of which turned into the current Federal Reserve Bank. But for countries like China and many others in Asia with strong state capaci…

We are talking about a sophisticated international trading system that happened 600 years ago. Clearly you don’t need anything like that to make it happen. Let alone Ancient Rome, Greece, Assyria, Sumer…

In your above comment you said:

> There is no need for computers or grand design or hyper-managerial government.

The response above is just pointing out that although you don't need a grand design or hyper-managerial government, it can be done using that approach too.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#44

Post by eszed »

mk_stjames wrote: post #29
mikkupikku wrote: post #10

> Its planks are made of Pomeranian oak from modern-day Poland, and the wood of its frame came from the Netherlands. I'm surprised the raw materials came together over such a distance. That transporting lumber was economical back then is remarkable.

I live in a late 18th-century rowhouse where there is large stonework for window sills/surrounds/doorways all done in a very specific pink granite that was carved from a shoreline quarry a significant distance away. Massive stones, 100kg+ each, had to be transported by horse-drawn cart, over not-easy-terrain, a distance that would have taken two horses probably 8-9 hours per trip, and enough stones that it was probab…

Are you anywhere near (the remains of?) a canal network? That was how bulk cargo was generally transported in the 18th century. First-mile + last-mile would be by wagon, of course, though usually pulled by oxen, not horses. Canals were economically revolutionary, for 100-150 years, until railroads largely supplanted them. They remained viable, in limited circumstances (ie, some routes for some cargos), until the mid-20th century.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#45

Post by bluGill »

bluGill wrote: post #17
Someone wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be not that amazing for a shipwreck in the Øresund. According to Wikipedia, its maximum depth is 40m (130’) ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Øresund ), so chances are a lot of it is less deep. There also may be sampling bias, with shipwrecks in shallower water being more likely to be found, and, if the tides flow faster in deeper water, survivorship bias.

ships are less likely to wreck in deep water. Storms can sill overturn them (though if they are unstable getting to deep water is questionable). You mostly expect wrecks from hitting rocks on the bottom. Though in war time sinking happens in deep water.

Too late to edit, but there is one more factor: even in war, the easiest way to find an enemy ship is when it is leaving port. Thus you would expect even in war time the battles are mostly in shallow water just because that is usually what you find around good ports. (Today with radar, satellite and such finding ships at sea isn't nearly as hard, but it is still not easy if the other isn't cooperating)

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#46

Post by tpurves »

opto wrote: post #40
asymmetric wrote: post #21

> On its stern, researchers were shocked to find extensive remains of a castle, a kind of covered deck where the crew would have sought shelter. Records show that castles were distinctive features of medieval cogs, but no physical evidence of them had previously been identified. I suppose this explains why the thing that exists on more modern ships is called a “forecastle”. PS go check the pronunciation for that word…

The forecastle of a ship is in the forward part of a ship — at the front, not the back. Looking at renderings of cogs, the 'castle' at the stern seems more to anticipate the modern bulk carrier, with an accommodation block with bridge on top at the aft end, looking out over the cargo holds.

Ships of that era and leader had castles on both ends fore and aft. It's just the forward one than retained in usage as a sailing term, even after foredecks no longer looked like castles. The aft castle became a quarterdeck, a poop deck, a cockpit or a bridge etc.

Meanwhile, a built-up and elevated stern 'castle' is advantageous place to put the steering and command position, close to the rudder and with visibility of the whole ship, it's rig, plus where the ship is going. While maximizing mid-ship area for cargo. If you have to pick one end or the other, stern is the more comfortable end of the ship being most sheltered from wave action and weather. Being elevated and fortified also helps as a fighting/defensive position, but that is less important for modern cargo ships. 'Anticipation' isn't quite the right word as shipbuilders have always worked within the same basic design considerations and trade-offs, as the sea itself continues to enforce the same fundamental constraints.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#47

Post by nephihaha »

Duanemclemore wrote: post #15
mikkupikku wrote: post #10

> Its planks are made of Pomeranian oak from modern-day Poland, and the wood of its frame came from the Netherlands. I'm surprised the raw materials came together over such a distance. That transporting lumber was economical back then is remarkable.

Check out the History of the Germans season on the Hanseatic League [0]. The bulk goods trade was in the Baltic / Northern Europe was actually huge. The Hansa themselves traded all the way from London to Novgorod. Anyway, it's an absolutely fascinating subject and period. [0] https://historyofthegermans.com/hanseatic-league/

They had trading posts in Scotland, the Faroes and Iceland.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#48

Post by nephihaha »

dyauspitr wrote: post #7
alberth wrote: post #3

Who would have guessed the Smithsonian of all organizations would have so many video popup ads. Isn’t the greatest experience on mobile when so little of the content can be seen due to popups.

I can appreciate their troubles. How is someone supposed to pay for all the overhead that goes into research and writing these articles without a source of income. People also seem dead against subscriptions. The only way that seems to work is appealing to the LCD and raking in stream bucks but not all media/literature, especially the valuable kind, is conducive to that model.

"How is someone supposed to pay for all the overhead that goes into research and writing these articles without a source of income?"

Some people here think it's wonderful most of Wikipedia was built without paying its editors. Depends who you ask.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#49

Post by nephihaha »

shiroiuma wrote: post #37
alberth wrote: post #3

Who would have guessed the Smithsonian of all organizations would have so many video popup ads. Isn’t the greatest experience on mobile when so little of the content can be seen due to popups.

It always amazes me how many people on "hacker news" don't use an ad-blocker.

Well, some people hold very conformist views which is surprising too.

Re: Found: Medieval Cargo Ship – Largest Vessel of Its Kind Ever

#50

Post by mk_stjames »

eszed wrote: post #44
mk_stjames wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a late 18th-century rowhouse where there is large stonework for window sills/surrounds/doorways all done in a very specific pink granite that was carved from a shoreline quarry a significant distance away. Massive stones, 100kg+ each, had to be transported by horse-drawn cart, over not-easy-terrain, a distance that would have taken two horses probably 8-9 hours per trip, and enough stones that it was probab…

Are you anywhere near (the remains of?) a canal network? That was how bulk cargo was generally transported in the 18th century. First-mile + last-mile would be by wagon, of course, though usually pulled by oxen, not horses. Canals were economically revolutionary, for 100-150 years, until railroads largely supplanted them. They remained viable, in limited circumstances (ie, some routes for some cargos), until the mid-…

Astute observation; no canal, but there is a river outflow to a bay, whereby a ship could have carried stones from the quarry, albeit a long way around a peninsula; it is possible that was a more effective way to get them close, and then use horse and cart to get them the last bit of distance.

Thinking about the logistics of such a feat at that time is wild to me for just the construction of a private residence.

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