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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#41
post #30

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?"

That's a very complex question. If you're talking about importing people then there is one set of answers, and if you're talking about outsourcing there's another.

Personally I think we should be more worried about the outsourcing. At least the people who come to the country in question and live there have similar costs, similar employment law and become part of the local economy. Where outsourcing happens there's no chance of competition at all because there's no such thing as health and safety in a lot of places.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#42

disclaimer: It's possible that I end up being an H-1B worker eventually, I'm a foreigner working in the US, and I'm working on a website that helps people like me. > H-1B workers are cheaper than Americans — "and the cost difference is too great" for IBM not to look for foreign workers first. The H-1B statutes are designed to allow employers to legally pay H-1B workers less than Americans and IBM (and a lot of others…

I personally have known people who do software development for as low as 35k/year. I have also known people who have attained wages as an engineer for as high as 250k/yr. Given this continuum I suspect it's very easy for a well heeled employer to keep the costs on the lower end of that spectrum.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#43
post #21
post #2

As a Canadian who will be going to work in the US through a TN Visa. I wonder if Canadian hires are also seen as a "cheaper" alternative to hiring locally.

the class of status (TN) is less important than the mindset of your new employer. No visa class requires you to be paid under market (some even require that you are paid a wage comparable to an american) If an employer is trying to "maximize profits" through non-american workers, they will do it regardless of what status you hold. If an employer is simply trying to find the somebody to "do the job" regardless of stat…

I worked in the US on an E3 Visa, which is pretty much like a H1B that is only available to Australians.

As I understand it, both of those require you to be paid at least the 'prevailing wage', and before the job is offered to you:

"This Form ETA-9035 needs to be posted in “two conspicuous locations” at the work site for 10 consecutive days where the H-1B (or H-1B1, or E-3) nonimmigrant will be employed. You must post the entire LCA, including the instructions and the portion containing information on the prevailing and offered wages."

http://www.jackson-hertogs.com/jh/faq/10509.pdf

ie, your employer has to post the fact that they're going to employ someone at a certain wage within the office.

That leads to fun times when your visa is up for renewal and the company is obliged to tell everyone what your wage is.

In my case I believe I was being paid more than some of my roughly-equivalent colleagues and there was some concern that the posting might ruffle some feathers. When I decided i'd had enough of the US and that it was time to move on I was told to pick anywhere in the world and my employer would pay to move me there and set me up so I could keep working for them. I was the complete opposite of an exploited foreign worker.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#44
All of the arguments in this thread are true. In areas where specialized knowledge is required, H-1B visas give you access to the global labor pool. You need that access because there may be only a few hundred of these specialists globally.

IMO, the big abuse of foreign workers takes place in big enterprise environments.

So bank X or government agency Y hires IGS or some other contractor to do something to some ancient COBOL application or monstrous J2EE thing. They go out and recruit from a body shop, or from IGS India if you pay extra. They justify using guest workers by submitting one of those classified ad style "compliance advertisements" in InformationWeek magazine.

I've worked at places that required disclosure of employee compensation -- the body shops that specialize in filling those drone titles bill $35-45/hr, and pay the workers 40-60% less, depending on the number of subcontractor layers. A US FTE is paid $40-55/hr inclusive of benefits, and a contractor anywhere from 40-60% more.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#45
post #41
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?" That's a very complex question. If you're talking about importing people then there is one set of answers, and if you're talking about outsourcing there's another. Personally I think we should be more worried about the outsourcing. At least the people who come to the country in question and live there have similar costs…

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?"

I agree, this is a good question, but I do think that you can answer "no" while still disagreeing with the premise of the H1B program. Another way to frame this would be.

"Should the 'artificial' supply limitations created by national boundaries be enforced evenly across all sectors of the workforce?"

I'm actually ok with a "no" to this answer, though my answer would be "no, but proceed with caution."

I support a points program to emphasize skilled immigration, so clearly I am willing to bend on the "even enforcement" to favor certain types of workers. However, like I said, do this with caution. I think that as the magnitude increases and the target narrows, you increase the possibility of a bad market distortion. To some extent, I do think we've done this in the US - we have created a situation that deters young Americans from entering this field.

I think that the most innovative countries will succeed because they have both managed to attract the top talent from around the world while maintaining a strong pipeline of talent from their own population. If you lock out top talent from overseas, you're doomed. If your entire strategy depends on convincing talent from overseas to stay, you're doomed.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#46
post #2

As a Canadian who will be going to work in the US through a TN Visa. I wonder if Canadian hires are also seen as a "cheaper" alternative to hiring locally.

From my experience, if its a large tech company then no. Canadians on TN get paid the same as local hires.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#47
Please consider the following two points. What's the difference between them?

1. The US pushed free-market + lower tariffs for imports of products into other countries. This lead to lower production in those countries, replaced by imports from the US. Leading to lower employment in many cases. [Today that's replaced with imports from China]

2. Other countries export 'services' to the US, in the form of BPOs/KPOs, or H1Bs. This leads to lower production of services in the US, resulting in lower employment in the US.

On the face of it, both are similar. Except one affects workers in the US and the other affects workers in the third-world.

So to balance free-trade, why not free-labor?

I would appreciate thoughtful replies on why free-trade and free-labor are not two sides of the same coin.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#48

disclaimer: It's possible that I end up being an H-1B worker eventually, I'm a foreigner working in the US, and I'm working on a website that helps people like me. > H-1B workers are cheaper than Americans — "and the cost difference is too great" for IBM not to look for foreign workers first. The H-1B statutes are designed to allow employers to legally pay H-1B workers less than Americans and IBM (and a lot of others…

Doing a project at Apple in the IT dept(big SAP shop). Feels like 99% of heads are staffed directly from India. There are some folks on L1's. Majority of them are rooming up to afford the cost of living in SV. No diversity whatsoever.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#49
post #28

An interesting point here is that the client was asking for an immigrant hire. Here we have a conflict between human nature and the law. It is human nature for Americans to perceive immigrant hires as cheaper. It doesn't matter if pay is actually the same or not. For someone looking to minimize labor costs, an immigrant hire has a better "brand" when it comes to price. Here's a thought experiment. Suppose hypothetica…

> It is human nature for Americans to perceive immigrant hires as cheaper.

Not at all. We perceive it because that's been the reality. If businesses only relied on their perceptions (and not accountants) I am sure more businesses would fail.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#50
As far as I know, these kind of abuses happen only in "consulting body shops": where they need to fill up number of workers working on a contract. But since IBM is now pretty much consulting company I see how they have incentive to cheat on H1B and L1.
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