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Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

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Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#41

Post by ChuckMcM »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #36
ChuckMcM wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What especially bothers me about this sort of trend is that it forces those of us who aren't big on bullshitting to do it anyway." I can't say I agree with this, the implication is that if you don't do it you will be harmed, which may be true in the short term but not in the long term [1]. I liked xo's reference to the worst argument in the world ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/ ) basic…

> worst argument in the world thanks for the link. I'll read it later tonight. > So pulling it back to the 'forcing' thing, this behavior erodes trust. Yes, absolutely. > And the best thing about it is you don't have to keep remembering what you said to be sure and not contradict yourself. For me the most important part is maintaining self-respect. Not contradicting yourself doesn't hurt either. What concerns me, tho…

It is entirely a function of fashion + money. I know that sounds stupid but it is.

The fashion part comes from what it means to be 'hip' which entirely driven by the flavor of the hour. We've talked about it on HN a bit but the best analog is that the coolness factor of 'doing a startup' got to be high enough that we got a huge influx of people who "want to do a startup" which is distinct and different from folks who "want to do X, this is the company I created to do that."

Too many people these days are doing startups like they used to do rock bands.

The second part is money. When rich people do it, especially people who were "like you" before but are now "rich" it creates a sense in folks that don't know any better that it is easy, or that anyone can do it. It is what causes people to move to LA from Nebraska to make it big in the movies.

So no, it is not a new phenomena. And the proportion of the bullshit to actual content is proportional to the fashion + money aspect. In 2000-2001 after the dot com bust was settling, none of the cool kids wanted to be startup people any more, so the people you ran into who were doing startups were more likely to be doing it because they believed in what they were doing. Now with Facebook and Google and the newly minting of a bunch of fresh twenty-something millionaires (or billionaires in some cases) the folks that mercifully left have unfortunately returned.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#42

Post by lsc »

mattmanser wrote: post #25

When I was about 12 I remember doing some school craft competition where we had to make and then sell our wares to our teachers. A teacher said something to me that's always stuck, but I always struggle with following. It was "Don't point out your own short comings" I was saying things like 'in the final run the paint job will be better', highlighting the deficiencies of our Xmas decorations instead of highlighting t…

>It was "Don't point out your own short comings"

actually... Once you have credibility with the person you are selling to? pointing out your own weaknesses, I think, builds a lot of trust.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#43

Post by adgar »

cs702 wrote: post #35

Like them or not, these kinds of exaggerations and not-quite-lies are common in business for a good reason: if customers, partners, investors, and/or employees ever perceive a company as a failure, they will start leaving the company . Once a company starts losing customers, partners, investors, and/or top people, it can quickly find itself in a downward spiral that is extremely difficult to reverse. When it comes to…

> When it comes to entrepreneurs specifically, more often than not these white lies are nothing more than a sincere effort to generate positive momentum 'out of thin air' when facing the harsh realities of entrepreneurship.

Which is why talk is cheap. Anyone can bullshit, startup founder or no.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#44

Post by nuclear_eclipse »

j_baker wrote: post #32

The world is filled with liars. I can come up with examples of this happening outside Silicon Valley for almost all of these points. Vanity metrics? "Customers saved an average of $200 by switching to Geico" Acquisition boasting? I'm sure this happens all the time, but nothing comes to mind immediately. Perpetual Euphoria? Enron's CEO talked the company up until the last minute. Perpetual Euphoria for Investors? Hous…

> Lying about who you're friends with? Every high schooler in existence.

Who would a high schooler lie about being friends with? Was I really that lame that I don't recall ever doing that?

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#45

Post by mojuba »

j_baker wrote: post #32

The world is filled with liars. I can come up with examples of this happening outside Silicon Valley for almost all of these points. Vanity metrics? "Customers saved an average of $200 by switching to Geico" Acquisition boasting? I'm sure this happens all the time, but nothing comes to mind immediately. Perpetual Euphoria? Enron's CEO talked the company up until the last minute. Perpetual Euphoria for Investors? Hous…

True, but there is, I think, a greater concentration of it in business and how companies present themselves to the world, rather than in every day life of ordinary people.

Advertisement in general is a total tip-to-toe agreed lie. Even if everything is true about that new crappy washing machine powder (can it be true though?), then at least the overly happy face of the ad mom is a lie. But we somehow agree to see those lies. We are trained to extract valuable information from it or otherwise just get programmed at the subconscious level.

So, somehow the habit of lying in the commercials is extended to all of the public relations.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#46

Post by victorhn »

nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #44
j_baker wrote: post #32

The world is filled with liars. I can come up with examples of this happening outside Silicon Valley for almost all of these points. Vanity metrics? "Customers saved an average of $200 by switching to Geico" Acquisition boasting? I'm sure this happens all the time, but nothing comes to mind immediately. Perpetual Euphoria? Enron's CEO talked the company up until the last minute. Perpetual Euphoria for Investors? Hous…

> Lying about who you're friends with? Every high schooler in existence. Who would a high schooler lie about being friends with? Was I really that lame that I don't recall ever doing that?

Maybe a popular guy/girl, you seem to gain social status by claiming to be friends with other high social status persons.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#48

Post by aaronbrethorst »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #41
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> worst argument in the world thanks for the link. I'll read it later tonight. > So pulling it back to the 'forcing' thing, this behavior erodes trust. Yes, absolutely. > And the best thing about it is you don't have to keep remembering what you said to be sure and not contradict yourself. For me the most important part is maintaining self-respect. Not contradicting yourself doesn't hurt either. What concerns me, tho…

It is entirely a function of fashion + money. I know that sounds stupid but it is. The fashion part comes from what it means to be 'hip' which entirely driven by the flavor of the hour. We've talked about it on HN a bit but the best analog is that the coolness factor of 'doing a startup' got to be high enough that we got a huge influx of people who "want to do a startup" which is distinct and different from folks who…

Thanks for the perspective. It's much appreciated!

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#49

Post by biznickman »

mattmanser wrote: post #25

When I was about 12 I remember doing some school craft competition where we had to make and then sell our wares to our teachers. A teacher said something to me that's always stuck, but I always struggle with following. It was "Don't point out your own short comings" I was saying things like 'in the final run the paint job will be better', highlighting the deficiencies of our Xmas decorations instead of highlighting t…

As we discussed in the comments of the post, I think I simply blur the definition of "lying". Stretching the truth, or purposely omitting the other side of the story is a form of lying if you ask me. Am I completely wrong here?

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#50

Post by montecarl »

mjn wrote: post #40

I see this often in academia as well, and imo it really damages the scientific literature. When I read an article, I really want an honest assessment by the author of the strengths and weaknesses of their approach and others. I don't only want to hear about how great the author's approach is, but I also want to hear positive things said about the "related work", and negative things said in the Conclusions about their…

My Ph.D. thesis advisor and I are trying to combat this trend in our field. We are working to develop a suite of benchmarks to evaluate and compare different methods/algorithms. The goal is to require everyone to run their code against a set of accepted standard problems in the field and obtain a fair comparison. As reviewers of papers we can and must hold authors accountable to their claims. You can't just claim that your algorithm is superior without comparing it to the work of others on a set of community agreed upon benchmark problems. The scientific review process needs to hold authors accountable for their claims. It isn't an easy task, but with some work it is possible to establish fair metrics. Once these metrics are in place it should no longer be possible to present your ideas in an biased light.
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