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Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

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Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#41

Post by bryanrasmussen »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #34
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you can cure these diseases, you can perhaps prevent them, but to cure would mean removing their effects, and if you could remove their effects and say, bring a seriously deteriorated Von Neumann back to his previous mental heights it seems like you should be able to make anyone the equal of Von Neumann - which I agree would be a great thing to be able to do but seems to be a much further along than the words…

There is a world of difference between removing an inhibitor and adding an enhancement.

since these diseases destroy parts of the brain not just inhibit the functioning of the brain you would need to add an enhancement and not remove an inhibitor to bring back lost functionality.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#42

Post by squigz »

1123581321 wrote: post #40
squigz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these mutually exclusive ideas? Can we not pursue research in this area while not forcing families to watch their loved ones slowly lose their mind and wither away?

It will be mutually exclusive along some class line if we try to pursue both. Additionally, without the desire to preserve life and value of the advantages of aged minds, we will not make as much progress on the disease.

Well, we are not "trying to" pursue both - we actively are. Anyway, there certainly is much discussion to be had about class discrimination in medical care, but that seems out of scope for this thread - not least because of very simple things like some country's healthcare systems being radically different than others.

> Additionally, without the desire to preserve life and value of the advantages of aged minds, we will not make as much progress on the disease.

I'm not sure why you think that easing end-of-life suffering would lead us to stop preserving life?

We're also not talking about "aged minds," we're talking about damaged minds - and even if we were, we're not talking about de-aging or anything like that.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#43

Post by cjbgkagh »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #41
cjbgkagh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a world of difference between removing an inhibitor and adding an enhancement.

since these diseases destroy parts of the brain not just inhibit the functioning of the brain you would need to add an enhancement and not remove an inhibitor to bring back lost functionality.

Depends very much on the disease, for my specific type of brain fog from dysautonomia (via ME/CFS and hEDS) it may feel like a gradual and permanent degradation but it is largely completely reversible and when you know what you're doing it's actually pretty easy to do so. This is only known by a very small minority of doctors so the chance a specific patient meets such a doctor is incredibly low which is why most people still think it's some great big mystery. I was able to remove the inhibitor and bounce back better than ever. I think the brain fog in my case was caused by excess IL-1B pro-inflammatory cytokines and directly targeting that with medication did result in the brain fog near permanently lifting.

It’s also likely that even if the degradation is permanent it is also likely multifaceted and one of those facets is likely to be treatable such that the impact of the degradation could be greatly reduced. I think it’s incumbent on us to try as much as possible even in the seemingly lost causes because learnings from such attempts could yield insights for those who are not lost causes.

It’s a ridiculous conflation to suggest that the inability to take a regular person and give them Von Neumann intelligence means that we can’t help Von Neumann stuffing an ailment even if a component of that ailment is clearly permanent.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#44

Post by sinenomine »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #16
tough wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not try to cure alzheimer or other mental diseases that show up on the elderly instead?

I doubt you can cure these diseases, you can perhaps prevent them, but to cure would mean removing their effects, and if you could remove their effects and say, bring a seriously deteriorated Von Neumann back to his previous mental heights it seems like you should be able to make anyone the equal of Von Neumann - which I agree would be a great thing to be able to do but seems to be a much further along than the words…

With all due respect, you didn't even try at anything resembling full effort. There are 2, maybe 3 societies in the world, which have (or had) the capacity to try implementing a serious R&D effort to prevent the diseases of aging. The effort has been meager so far, and ultimately, compared to other major R&D directions (no, I'm not talking about AI, AI is fine), it's a testament to how much we value ourselves and our loved ones.

As an adult who already lost a few of my relatives, and will probably lose a few more: if we truly loved them, we'd have put at least 10% of GDP into eventually curing all degenerative diseases, while implementing a simple scalable cryopreservation infrastructure for those who won't be there in time.

It could be done, The West and Asia could achieve this. But didn't, due to all too well known web of aversion & coping mechanisms.

In your small-mindedness you failed humanity.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#45

Post by sinenomine »

mrshadowgoose wrote: post #26
tough wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not try to cure alzheimer or other mental diseases that show up on the elderly instead?

Do you genuinely believe that this is a binary decision, or is this just anti-euthanasia rhetoric disguised as concern trolling? Offering humane end-of-life options to people suffering today does not prohibit ongoing disease research towards potentially helping people in the future.

It's not entirely binary, but there is an obvious unpleasant tendency in e.g. Canada, to soft-push MAID onto potentially treatable patients who don't even seek medically assisted death.

I wouldn't want my government to have an option of dealing with the problem this way, and if I needed MAID, I'd just self-administer.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#46

Post by antisthenes »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #33

I used to get this pretty regularly, I thought I just keep burning out. I have an unusually high IQ and noticed that my symptoms were very similar to the string of condensed matter physicists that committed suicide. Their descriptions of their health issues before they killed themselves mirrored my own and I too used the Flowers from Algernon to describe my difficulties to others. I shared other weird stuff like extr…

> The characteristic brain fog seems to be tied to dysautonomia and excess IL-1B pro-inflammatory cytokines. I treat the latter with a strict no sugar diet, and high doses of D3, TUDCA, and DIM. I treat the dysautonomia with LDN, modafinil, amitryptiline, and a low dose of semaglutide (ozempic).

Does it work?

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#47

Post by sinenomine »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #41
cjbgkagh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a world of difference between removing an inhibitor and adding an enhancement.

since these diseases destroy parts of the brain not just inhibit the functioning of the brain you would need to add an enhancement and not remove an inhibitor to bring back lost functionality.

1. As other commenters point, many cases have intact memory and circuits for what would be considered "lost", which activate from time to time. So it's likely a question of SNR and tissue vitality (e.g. basic capillary function) for these cases.

2. You wouldn't believe what feats of neuroplasticity lie behind a few receptors properly pushed by molecular keys. We just don't have experience to describe it. Adult neuroplasticity and (disproven btw) neurogenesis is a rigid sad joke compared to what's possible.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#48

Post by sinenomine »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #24
squigz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree would be a great thing to be able to do but seems to be a much further along than the words cure or prevent would indicate. If the words "cure" or "prevent" don't indicate that, why did you bring it up? :) I think this is being needlessly pedantic. Keeping in mind that one of HN's guidelines is to respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of a comment, I think we can assume that GP meant, essentiall…

The "disease" we're talking about here is death. Von Neumann was losing his mental capacity because he was dying. I know some in the silicon valley set think that "curing" death is both feasible and desirable but I disagree on both points.

A voice from outside SV (mine): We can extend life and prevent disease in animals and should do the same in human beings. As much as the West has exclusive access to biomedical R&D, it's an ethical imperative for the West to pursue this goal on behalf of humanity as a whole.

You invented noblesse oblige and should measure up to it.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#49

Post by cjbgkagh »

antisthenes wrote: post #46
cjbgkagh wrote: post #33

I used to get this pretty regularly, I thought I just keep burning out. I have an unusually high IQ and noticed that my symptoms were very similar to the string of condensed matter physicists that committed suicide. Their descriptions of their health issues before they killed themselves mirrored my own and I too used the Flowers from Algernon to describe my difficulties to others. I shared other weird stuff like extr…

> The characteristic brain fog seems to be tied to dysautonomia and excess IL-1B pro-inflammatory cytokines. I treat the latter with a strict no sugar diet, and high doses of D3, TUDCA, and DIM. I treat the dysautonomia with LDN, modafinil, amitryptiline, and a low dose of semaglutide (ozempic). Does it work?

Very much so, night and day. I’ve been pretty much issue free for 2 years, except for PEM which means I have to avoid cardio. I don’t know how to fix that. Instead of cardio I eat healthy and lift weights. I was one of those gifted kids which was a hell of an advantage but things slipped away from me as I got older, now I’m back and as good as ever.

Re: Me an' Algernon – grappling with (temporary) cognitive decline

#50

Post by eszed »

> I’ve always identified with my thinking—I have value because I’m smart. Turns out, as with all attachment, this is a mistake.

I experienced a period of severe cognitive deficit while recovering from a medical episode. We didn't know whether it would be permanent or not. I also discovered - as a fellow my-IQ-is-my-identity person - that it didn't matter anywhere near as much as I'd have expected it would. I was still able to experience love, and joy, and humour. Some things sucked, and were frustrating, like not being able to retain enough information to read a moderately-complex piece of prose, but the point is that I still felt like myself, even at a very low cognitive level. I'm immensely comforted. I expect I'll experience that again, as I (hopefully!) age, but it holds no particular terror anymore.

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