Live data from Hacker News

Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

picower.mit.edu

41–50 of 140 posts

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#41

Incoming cocaine therapy! Seriously though as someone who suffers from extreme anxiety I am eternally grateful for this kind of work. I would really like to see this combined with brain stimulation.

I would unironically say this is the how of how adderall works for me. I am distracted from work by anxiety. With medication, I'm not distracted.

Indeed, I was surprised both at the fact that it literally makes me feel better because the drug makes you feel good but also that it calmed my brain down and let me access some inner peace. But also the focus modification is big and I learned so many good habits that now I need much less of it to get stuff done. I wake up and start doing my chores before I even have my first dose!

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#42
>extinguish fear after a peril has passed

Surprised that there is no mention to extreme sports in this.

Big "what a rush" moment right after the person does something extreme and survives. Big dose of adrenaline in there not just dopamine but the parallels seem striking

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#43
When you see headlines (or hear podcasters) talk about dopamine and other neurotransmitters, remember that neurotransmitters are merely signaling molecules.

The correct way to interpret this study is that dopamine is part of the signaling chain involved in fear extinction. The specific details of where, how, and when that dopamine moves through the brain are important.

The wrong way to interpret these studies is to think of dopamine as a "level" within the brain that goes up and down. Resist the urge to assume that taking a dopamine-modulating drug will result in this specific outcome.

Dopamine response within the brain is very complicated and region dependent. When encoding aversive stimuli (things you learn to avoid) there is evidence that dopamine signaling decreases in some brain areas while it increases in others: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235215462... That's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't fall for the trap of thinking that dopamine does just one or two things in the brain.

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#44
post #19

Incoming cocaine therapy! Seriously though as someone who suffers from extreme anxiety I am eternally grateful for this kind of work. I would really like to see this combined with brain stimulation.

What’s interesting here is that in the drug treatment world it’s basically known that drug abuse is almost always a reaction to some kind of psychological trauma or disorder, and an awful lot of drugs (not just cocaine) play heavily with the dopamine pathways. The idea of dopamine as your brain’s signal that you’re safe fits about as neatly with that as can be. (Of course, like everything in biology, dopamine also do…

> in the drug treatment world it’s basically known that drug abuse is almost always a reaction to some kind of psychological trauma or disorder,

This is not true in the professional world. People engage in drug use for many reasons, including pure recreation.

Trauma can precede relapses or bouts of drug abuse, but it's not a universal explanation.

There are a lot of pop-culture ideas that explain everything away as trauma. These are popular on podcasts, Reddit, and other social media websites. There are also types of therapists who learned to treat trauma and then try to apply that to everything. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". These therapists will try to reframe everything as trauma because it's what they know how to teach.

They often reverse engineer a traumatic backstory as an explanation even when one doesn't exist. You can find podcasters and therapists who will even claim that being born imparts permanent trauma that explains things long into adulthood. There's no evidence behind this claim, but it's convenient for therapists who need to find a traumatic backstory before they can address something because everyone was born at some point.

> The idea of dopamine as your brain’s signal that you’re safe fits about as neatly with that as can be.

That idea is completely wrong, though.

The study is talking about dopamine signaling in one specific location of the brain.

Dopamine is used in other locations in the brain to encode aversive stimuli, among other things.

Dopamine (and other neurotransmitters) don't just do one single thing in the brain. They have diverse effects all over.

Also, many of the drugs that people associated with dopamine actually have much broader effects, such as on norepinephrine (stimulants) and serotonin (cocaine).

There are dopamine agonist drugs that go in and very precisely target different dopamine receptors in the brain, activating them directly. Many people are surprised to learn that a common side effect of these drugs is an irresistible urge to sleep when first taking them, for example.

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#45
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of asking on HN how to not use HN

The best place to help you cope with an addiction are with the people who are confessed addicts. But just because they are the best doesn’t mean their help actually helps.

The best place to help you cope with continuing an addiction, but not the best place to get rid of an addiction.

If you want to get rid of an addiction, stay away from addicts and everything they produce. Stay away from their artistic creations, stay away from their complicated explanations of the world, and stay away from their gossip. Also, please don't study to become any kind of "drug counselor," get regular person jobs and normal hobbies. You're dying of romance, and you need to figure out how to love the world as it is.

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#46

Incoming cocaine therapy! Seriously though as someone who suffers from extreme anxiety I am eternally grateful for this kind of work. I would really like to see this combined with brain stimulation.

Well MDMA therapy is a real one and probably much more effective than cocaine for these purposes.

Psilocybin too

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generic Adderall Gang here, and in hindsight, I'm surprised at how little of it I need to realize a much better headspace. Makes me wonder if all of that caffeine in my undiagnosed youth was saying something...

I'd be interested in your thoughts more here. The problem with amphetamine is you pay for every benefit: focus now, lethargy later; energy now, anhedonia later. But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work? Do you feel you net benefits in life from taking the drug, discounting for withdrawal and/or tolerance?

> The problem with amphetamine is you pay for every benefit: focus now, lethargy later; energy now, anhedonia later.

> But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work? Do you feel you net benefits in life from taking the drug, discounting for withdrawal and/or tolerance?

There's a reason these medications are supposed to be taken regularly at the same dose in clinical practice. Patients should not be going through cycles of taking stimulants and then withdrawing all of the time.

There's a disconnect between the way some people try to use stimulants ad-hoc versus the therapeutic modality. The initial burst of confidence, energy, and positive mood that comes from intermittent use is a side effect, but people confuse it with a primary effect. They can get into cycles of chasing it with dose escalations or taking it on random days while they exist below baseline on others. This isn't a winnable battle over time because the brain will adapt, not to mention all of those off-days start to add up and people around them notice the extremely inconsistent mood and performance.

Unfortunately, misinformation about ADHD is all over the internet. I recommend ignoring basically anything that comes out of Reddit, Twitter, or TikTok because it's really that bad. Take medications as directed and set yourself up for some stability. Resist the urge to play with doses, take excess doses on some days, or try to play tolerance games. These never work in the long term.

There's a simple heuristic: When you reach stability, you shouldn't really feel the medication. It should be background noise. There's a reason why young people who have been properly titrated on stimulant medications don't understand what the big deal is with their peers taking large doses (without tolerance) and then speeding around for a while. It's where the myth about ADHD people reacting differently to stimulants comes from. Proper treatment will settle to equilibrium and shouldn't produce overt feelings of being drugged or hyperfocused.

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#48
post #42

>extinguish fear after a peril has passed Surprised that there is no mention to extreme sports in this. Big "what a rush" moment right after the person does something extreme and survives. Big dose of adrenaline in there not just dopamine but the parallels seem striking

Also "Duper's Delight."

Re: Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generic Adderall Gang here, and in hindsight, I'm surprised at how little of it I need to realize a much better headspace. Makes me wonder if all of that caffeine in my undiagnosed youth was saying something...

I'd be interested in your thoughts more here. The problem with amphetamine is you pay for every benefit: focus now, lethargy later; energy now, anhedonia later. But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work? Do you feel you net benefits in life from taking the drug, discounting for withdrawal and/or tolerance?

In my experience, no. You just get used to it and it does fuck all. Maybe worse even. Adderall seems to take my creativity away entirely and I just feel like a zombie.

Theres a host of physical symptoms that come with it to that are not fun to manage: decreased appetite, dehydration, headaches, sleep loss, heart palpatstions.

I would say its far better to take it on a needed basis once in a while

Post reply on HN