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Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

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Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#41
post #14

Can someone explain to me how the US can reshore manufacturing without dramatically lower their standard of living? Maybe they can subsidize some essential industries but I can’t see a path to do it for everything.

If we take out the money of the equation, it really is about what activities constitute good standard of living.

Is it better standard of living to be in a small apartment in the city working an office job or is it better standard of living being in a more rural area working manual jobs. (I honestly don't know, personally, I prefer to do thinking work)

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#42

The USA captures most of the value from selling iPhones worldwide, but yet the entire value of an iPhone counts only as a Chinese export. Something is not right with how we calculate these things.

iPhone sales don't count as a US export when calculating the trade deficit? Does anyone have information on this? Seems like a major issue indeed.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#43
post #26

Interesting, and worrying at the time, but he clearly turned out to be wrong. The trend never stopped [1] and is not obviously responsible for any negative economic trend. The trend has continued [2]. The thing to worry about is probably not that it is happening, but who is holding these investments. [1]: https://www.bea.gov/data/intl-trade-investment/international... [2]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1HrHY

The way he views net investment and net foreign ownership seem wrong.

He uses the analogy of a farm owner selling bits of their farm to fund their trade deficit.

But in the real world, it's not zero sum like this. The pie isn't fixed to the size of the farm. New companies serving new needs can be created.

If you're a poor country wanting to escape poverty, you want FDI to be high because you realize it's not zero sum.

Yeah, foreigners now own 20% of your stock market due to negative net investment, but it's now 1.5x as big so your slice increased in size to 0.8*1.5 > 1 and everyone is happy.

Given this, I struggle to understand if his argument still has merit.

He has a point about national debt but it's not a new one.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#44

It seems like the way to "fix" a trade deficit is to create products the rest of the world actually wants to buy. The application of any reciprocal arrangement, whether tariffs or these ICs as proposed in the article only achieves "balance" through punishing others. Aside from the obvious consumer technology and software I am hard pushed to think of any USA produce I would buy that would meet the standards we have in…

> create products the rest of the world actually wants to bu

Exactly. Esp when you have the leader(s) of the US complaining that Europe doesn't buy US cars. Well in the UK smaller cars dominate the market where in the US larger cars do. On avg US cars are longer, wider, taller, and heavier.

A lot of our roads (Cities and urban areas) were not designed for larger cars, even a Tesla smallest car, the Model 3 feels big on the road, well it feels big on the road to me.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#45

The USA captures most of the value from selling iPhones worldwide, but yet the entire value of an iPhone counts only as a Chinese export. Something is not right with how we calculate these things.

Quoting from wikipedia:

> Prior to 20th-century monetarist theory, the 19th-century economist and philosopher Frédéric Bastiat expressed the idea that trade deficits actually were a manifestation of profit, rather than a loss. He proposed as an example to suppose that he, a Frenchman, exported French wine and imported British coal, turning a profit.

> He supposed he was in France and sent a cask of wine which was worth 50 francs to England. The customhouse would record an export of 50 francs.

> If in England, the wine sold for 70 francs (or the pound equivalent), which he then used to buy coal, which he imported into France (the customhouse would record an import of 70 francs), and was found to be worth 90 francs in France, he would have made a profit of 40 francs.

> But the customhouse would say that the value of imports exceeded that of exports and was trade deficit of 20 against the ledger of France. This is not true for the current account[, which] would be in surplus.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_trade#Monetarist_th... )

A major fundamental flaw in the concept is the assumption that goods have a fixed value. In reality, their value changes according to where they are, which is the only reason it's possible to make a profit by moving them around.

Note that in the same example, if the French wine is bought by a wizard instead of a merchant, and he transmutes the wine into 50-francs-of-wine's worth of coal for export to England (the ways of wizards are mysterious), the customs house will record the value of the coal as 90 francs. It's only worth 50 francs when it's going the other way.

And if he does the same thing, transmuting the wine into coal within France, and then sells it in France, the econometric body will be happy that French GDP has increased by 90 francs, making the people of France richer.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#47

A long time ago, Britain was the dominant economic power in the world. Britain had a massive trade deficit with India. It imported far more from India than it exported to India. But what Britain did was import massive amounts from India and made high value goods at home and provided high value services that couldn't be provided elsewhere. Should it have flipped the other way? In 1800, should Britain have suddenly shi…

The t-shirt metaphor is completely unjust - there is no value there for national security nor strategic autonomy.

Consider instead:

- Semiconductor low-end fabrication (Taiwan, Korea)

- Basic electronics: circuit boards, USB devices, .. (China)

- Auto parts (Mexico, China, Germany)

- Generic drugs (India, China)

The reality is that the US is not the ultimate global hegemon anymore and therefore offshoring industries cannot simply be viewed through an economic lens.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#48

I think we should expect the US to lose its reserve currency status if these tariffs continue and we should also expect its tax revenue to drop. The combination may make it more likely to see a US default on its debt as there will be less demand for its bonds around the world and less ability to pay high interest rates. Seems unthinkable I know but we are in weird times. If Trump doesn’t back down we may see a very i…

Are they really winning though or are they actually just rotting in a hell of their own making?

Something to consider. Money can't buy you love.

Re: Growing trade deficit is selling the nation out from under us (2003) [pdf]

#50

A long time ago, Britain was the dominant economic power in the world. Britain had a massive trade deficit with India. It imported far more from India than it exported to India. But what Britain did was import massive amounts from India and made high value goods at home and provided high value services that couldn't be provided elsewhere. Should it have flipped the other way? In 1800, should Britain have suddenly shi…

>high value goods at home and provided high value services that couldn't be provided elsewhere.

Eh, they were swiftly outcompeted in almost all fields, but protected that system of mercantilism, by disallowing their colonies to unload anything that was not flagged british. Monopolies work that way, they ruin things and are memorized in the empire center as "good times"..

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/041615/how-did-merc...

PS: This is one of the reasons why the spinwheel is on indias flag- as a sign of clothing production autonomy.

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