It's unfortunate that the elite's interest in stoicism (along with the sigma male crowd) has tainted its perception. It's essentially the basis of CBT and logotherapy that has changed my life for the better. But we also saw this with Buddhist meditation and other various practices divorced from the worldview that spawned them.
Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
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Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#42> Because I think it’s important that we mingle some Voltaire in with our Seneca, and remember that stoicism’s invaluable advice for taking better care of ourselves inside can–if we fail to mix it with other ideas–come with a big blind spot regarding the world outside ourselves, and whether we should change it.
Ideally the answer is no, there’s no need to actively change systems if the system proponents are not interested in that change. In case of majority rules, the minority has to seek compromise. Such rules assume that different systems will create their own conditions for long term stability, and there will not be any interference from outside forces.
Under these ideal conditions, agents have freedom of movement to other places, where they exercise free will and actualize because determinism by random events (like being born into a specific system in which an agent is unfulfilled or unwelcome) does not promote long term stability for any system.
In reality, however, agents compete to dominate, and every system then has to mirror each other in some way, or face destabilization.
There’s no such thing as resource scarcity in an endless universe—the problem of different systems is that the existence of another presents an existential threat. Stoicism helps manage this existential threat while acknowledging the caveat that aggressively defending the existence of a system is justified when faced with a direct threat.
A note on social inequality in a given state: if everyone has the same rights, and those rights are applied equally, then that ensures long term cultural stability. If you create second class citizens, or justly aggrieved minorities, then that’s asking for trouble as any interfering force can use that minority to create destabilization. The only things which makes sense is letting people have their own places, and not be interfered with; practically, for a country like the U.S., it means that all states should be free to determine their own set of rules governing rights outside of the purview of the Constitution. In that case, maybe it’s more humane for blue states to accept refugees from red states, and vice versa. Like people mad about Trans rights in CA should move to TX. Extending this logic dictates that blue cities in red states can have their own rules for governance. I think, then, the smallest unit which can have its own set of governing powers should be any which has the resources to implement them, in a self-sufficient and independent manner. I don’t know practical that might be, but it’s an interesting thought experiment.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#43One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.
Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty
All those things are somewhat socially determined. Even height has gone up in the last century. Personally I think I'm tall for somebody my age but I see a lot of young men who are a lot taller than me.
To look at that last one, in the solar economy up until 1920 or so, the peak of beauty socially [1] was the debutante from a rich or noble family. As soon as there were cities there were entertainers and courtesans, but in the mass media age the likes of Marie Antoinette just can't compete with professionals.
Standards of athleticism also involve an element of conformity. "Extreme sports" are frequently pioneered by older athletes who have no chance of making the NFL draft but get taken over by the young once a path is visible. (Early winners of the World Series of Poker were outright old, but it became a young man's game when it became mainstream in the 2000s.)
Some societies have a use for people with high intelligence, others don't.
[1] I'm sure there were beautiful peasants to my eye in Heian Japan but the text that survive from that period describe a very specific ideal including perfectly straight and rather coarse black hair that's about as rigid as the look of the kind of woman who, creepily, Instagram wants me to follow today.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#44I wonder what caused the current obsession with stoicism. It seems vacant.
Could you recommend another philosophy worth exploring? As someone who's relatively new to Stoicism, I've found the four virtues (wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance) to offer valuable guidance for living a balanced life. I'd genuinely appreciate hearing more about your perspective—why do you find Stoicism vacant?
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#45One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.
Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty
A lot of people don’t know that guilt is an emotion and like all emotions needs to be managed. They feel it, assume it’s appropriate and then seek a cause that fits.
Sorry if this sounds dismissive, it’s not meant to be. But I think it is the cold hard reason for a lot of feeling/stress among people who have otherwise nice lives with no explicit moral failings…
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#46One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.
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Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#47I can’t speak for the rich and powerful (as I’m neither), nor do I subscribe to stoicism necessarily.
But I do work in tech and enjoyed (and periodically re-read) Marcus Aurelius’ “Meditations”
I originally read it out of curiosity, not often you get to see a leader’s supposedly unedited, personal diary.
But I keep coming back because of the calming prose and (imo) useful lessons about dealing with a stressful world.
Eg Epictetus’ quote “don’t hand your mind over to every passerby”
and “don’t be upset by disrespect from people you don’t respect”
were good reminders on not getting mentally derailed from rudeness or slights by the minority of interactions throughout a day.
“we all come from nature” is a nice reminder on forgiveness
Perhaps the first two could be seen as elitist, but it was helpful to me in a customer-facing role in dealing with the 10% of rude clients.
Overall it reads like a secular proverbs, with that much more weight due to the size and non-publishing intent of the author.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty
Almost universally prosperity is gained through privilege, compounded over generations. Privilege being rules/customs/systems that favored your group over others.
To be fair, the traits OP mentioned are heritable, and so to a large extent come from the privilege of having [tall | intelligence | athletic | beautiful] parents. So privilege doesn't explain why you'd feel guilty about one and not about the rest.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#49One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.
Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty
> Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society?
I can understand the idea of feeling guilty about wasted potential (wealth, time, strength, beauty, intelligence). That which could be used to help those who need help, not exactly novel: “If you have two coats, give one away”
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#50"stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful" What did I miss? Does Stoicism claim everything in the universe is already perfect? That seems like a bold (counter-intuitive) c…
It’s wrong on the same level of “The central message of Buddhism is not ‘every man for himself’, Otto!”