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Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

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Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#11

Post by mjburgess »

bko wrote: post #5
qoez wrote: post #3

One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.

Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty

Because you're a social animal in a social world, whose social action creates and modifies that world.

Since you are a body, in an environment, with a psychology -- your actions have an effect upon the world.

The invitation to dissociate and mute your social emotions is an invitation to keep everything as-it-is.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#13

Post by sentimentscan »

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

Interesting, can you provide more sources, about the dictators and stoicism, also Marcus Aurelius was he a tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier?

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#14

Post by pj_mukh »

"stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful"

What did I miss? Does Stoicism claim everything in the universe is already perfect? That seems like a bold (counter-intuitive) claim.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#15

Post by mjburgess »

lonestar wrote: post #9
mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

I believe you mean Marcus Aurelius

I have read his diaries, though carelessly writing Mark Antony over Marcus Aurelius does undermine the point. -- Thanks, edited. I guess one shouldnt write HN comments while listening to corporate policy announcements.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#17

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

mjburgess wrote: post #15
lonestar wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you mean Marcus Aurelius

I have read his diaries, though carelessly writing Mark Antony over Marcus Aurelius does undermine the point. -- Thanks, edited. I guess one shouldnt write HN comments while listening to corporate policy announcements.

We all do what must to keep sane.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#18

Post by skwee357 »

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

My guess why Aurelius is considered as the face of stoicism is due to the fact he was an emperor/powerful man. I doubt that the twisted way in which stoicism is viewed today would benefit from selling it as a philosophy of Zeno, who was a foreigner.

What I mean by that is that stoicism in its modern iteration seems a brosphere/manosphere thing that will help you to become rich/powerful/successful/buy a lambo, while in reality, the stoics rejected material possessions and the entire philosophy was created by Zeno who lived an ascetic life, despite being wealthy.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#19

Post by cscurmudgeon »

qoez wrote: post #3

One perspective is that meditation and stoicism helps silence guilt about being so properous in an unequal society.

Hard core meditators in Hindu traditions were ascetic beggars and still are.

We just don’t see them writing books or posting on YouTube.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#20

Post by wallawe »

Palomides wrote: post #8
bko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should one feel guilt about being prosperous in an unequal society? Even if you accept that it's based entirely on luck rather than merits, I don't see why you should feel guilt. A few examples of things based entirely on luck that no one really argues we should feel guilty about: Being tall Having high innate level of intelligence Athletic Physical beauty

height isn't fungible even if acquiring wealth is random, retaining wealth means choosing not to see and positively act on the state of the world

> retaining wealth means choosing not to see and positively act on the state of the world

This is just silly. Just because you retain wealth doesn't mean you aren't positively acting to improve the current state of the world.

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