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FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

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Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#41

Post by Zak »

unwise-exe wrote: post #36

I thought advertising and marketing materials were expected to exaggerate things to the point of blatant falsehood. Is that changing, or is this company being singled out for some reason, or are they really that much worse than everyone else?

It is, and has long been illegal to make false statements of fact in marketing materials.

Puffery, on the other hand is allowed. That usually entails non-falsifiable statements like "Evolv is the best way to detect guns". "Best" doesn't really mean anything because there are a bunch of tradeoffs that go into designing a security screening system.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#42

Post by Der_Einzige »

gruez wrote: post #27
AngryData wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with this stance at all. US shootings and crimes will not be stopped or declined by stronger invasions of privacy and increased searches. US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Over and over and over again throughout history, harsher law enforcement…

>US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Source? This doesn't pass the sniff test. First, US's poverty rate isn't the lowest, but is below many lower income countries that also have lower homicide rates. The figures for poverty rates take into account PPP, so it's…

[flagged]

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#43

Post by ceejayoz »

mattw2121 wrote: post #37
ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/12/17/mass-s... > GVA has reported 971 cases of school shootings across the United States in 2024, with many of them having no victims or injuries. The database has tracked 112 school shootings in which a victim was injured or killed. Somewhere between ~3/day and ~0.3/day, depending what you count. Close enough.

USA Today's reporting is wrong. There are not 971 cases of school shootings. There are about that many "school incidents". Some of those incidents, like the one listed below, are where police responded to a report of someone with a gun and never found the person or gun. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3096236 Additionally, some of the 112 that did have a victim didn't even happen on campus. See this linke…

> Additionally, some of the 112 that did have a victim didn't even happen on campus. See this linked incident.

Did you look at your link?

> Student shot in leg during dispute in parking lot as school was dismissing

That's a school shooting. The parking lot is absolutely part of the campus.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#44

Post by giantg2 »

gruez wrote: post #27
AngryData wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with this stance at all. US shootings and crimes will not be stopped or declined by stronger invasions of privacy and increased searches. US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Over and over and over again throughout history, harsher law enforcement…

>US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Source? This doesn't pass the sniff test. First, US's poverty rate isn't the lowest, but is below many lower income countries that also have lower homicide rates. The figures for poverty rates take into account PPP, so it's…

Plenty of sources on the correlation of various socioeconomic factors with violence and gun violence. Pubmed is a good starting point.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35546249/

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#45

Post by AnthonyMouse »

razakel wrote: post #9
AngryData wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with this stance at all. US shootings and crimes will not be stopped or declined by stronger invasions of privacy and increased searches. US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Over and over and over again throughout history, harsher law enforcement…

Canadians have guns. Mexicans have guns. Australians have guns. They don't have school shootings on an almost daily basis. The problem is definitely not the guns. It doesn't help, but it's not the root cause.

> Mexicans have guns.

Mexico has some of the most stringent gun laws in the world. They also have more than four times the murder rate of the US. So while it's technically true that Mexicans have guns, this is more along the lines of "people inclined to violate the law against murder have no qualms about violating the law against unlawful possession of a firearm" rather than that it's easy to lawfully acquire a firearm in Mexico.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#46

Post by pavel_lishin »

gs17 wrote: post #40
ceejayoz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651 made tens of millions of dollars at ~$5,000/unit. > The laboratory found that the card contained only a standard radio frequency ID tag of the type used in stores to prevent shoplifting. According to the laboratory's Dr. Markus Kuhn, it was "impossible" for the card to detect anything and it had "absolutely nothing to do with the detection of TNT". The card could…

> Promotional material issued by ATSC claimed that the ADE 651 could detect such item as guns, ammunition, drugs, truffles, human bodies, contraband ivory and bank notes at distances of up to 1 kilometre (0.62 mi), underground, through walls, underwater or even from aircraft at an altitude of up to 5 kilometres (3.1 mi). Could they have at least tried to make their lies believable?

I assume it's like Nigerian Prince emails - if they were believable, they might have appealed to buyers who would have done something like purchasing one and testing it, instead of spending millions of dollars on garbage.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#47

Post by cpitman »

ceejayoz wrote: post #18
yesco wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy to inform you that the United States also does not have school shootings on an "almost daily basis". Not trying to be pedantic here, but gross exaggerations misrepresent the issue.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/12/17/mass-s... > GVA has reported 971 cases of school shootings across the United States in 2024, with many of them having no victims or injuries. The database has tracked 112 school shootings in which a victim was injured or killed. Somewhere between ~3/day and ~0.3/day, depending what you count. Close enough.

Looking at this database, they have a really loose definition of a "school shooting".

I'm just going in order here, no picking and choosing. Here's the link if anyone wants to follow along: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/school-shootings

1. A teacher had a gun in their possession, there was no shooting: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3099438

2. An adult robbery suspect was found by police on a high school campus, fled the police, and was then shot somewhere else: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3098506

3. Parent showed a gun during an argument with the school (this one is closer to bad, but still, no shooting): https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3098581

4. Teenager brought gun to a baseball game: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3098572

5. Adult found trespassing on campus with cocaine and a modified flare gun: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3098062

6. Students fought and showed a gun: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3098023

7. Student in possession of a gun: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3097870

8. Student in possession of a gun: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3097949

9. Adult bicyclist dropped a handgun in parking lot of campus while student basketball game was underway inside: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3095500

10. Abundant Life Christian School

1 out of the first 10 being what most people would call a "school shooting" brings that 971 cases number into question.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#48

Post by bilbo0s »

soared wrote: post #32
potato3732842 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the massive illegal drug industry that has to DIY the kind of business-dispute settling violence that normal industries use court ordered state violence for. That alone accounts of a huge amount of our violence.

Source, does gang/drug violence really account for a lot of our violence? This says only 16% of homicides are drug related. https://www.niagararecovery.com/blog/drug-related-crime-stat...

I think HN User potato3732842's comment was probably true back in the 90's.

But now, yes, the nature of threats to US citizens have changed. There has obviously been a decrease in the whole drug and gang violence side because of interdiction and enforcement. Meanwhile a massive expansion of the whole "school or workplace shooter" thing. Law enforcement has not changed to effectively meet this threat yet, so it seems like it's happening with impunity. Just as in the 90's law enforcement had not changed to meet the drug violence threat yet, so drug violence seemed like it happened with impunity back then.

We just need for law enforcement to increase the pace at which they adapt to meet new threats.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#49

Post by pavel_lishin »

idontwantthis wrote: post #20

Clark County School District recently signed a $5 million contract with a different AI “Weapon Detection System”. There is no way any of them are real is there? Edit: CCSD uses Remark. Maybe their AI actually knows what a person walking with a gun somewhere on their body looks like in all situations and for all skin colors.

Seems like it would cost less than $5m to independently test this unit before purchase.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#50

Post by giantg2 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #29
ceejayoz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples in both directions abound. Guns aren't required: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/us/indiana-school-shooting-te... https://www.npr.org/2022/11/15/1136617873/buffalo-clinic-gun... https://time.com/6249944/monterey-park-mass-shooting-brandon... https://nypost.com/2022/02/01/waffle-house-shooting-video-sh... https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-exclusive-teacher-hugged-... Guns (even nearly 400 of them, carried by…

You're trying to disprove the political slogan, which is obviously rhetoric. "The only way to X is Y" is generally going to be false because absolutist statements in general are going to be false. The real question is, for example, does prohibiting school staff from having firearms make it better or worse? Which is pretty hard to measure when there is a federal law against it. But a point in favor of "better" is that…

What federal law is that? I heard more than half of states allow it now.
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