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Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

awala.network

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Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#41

Post by lxgr »

This is an amazing initiative!

Unfortunately at least on iOS, it's always going to be severely limited by what Apple allows and does not allow apps to do in the background and with regards to P2P connecting to other (especially non-Apple) Wi-Fi devices.

I've been dreaming about an optionally P2P messenger for a long time, i.e. something that just communicates over the internet while it's there, but lets messages piggy back onto others' devices if not.

This could address simple cases like one person with and another without a mobile data plan, or something more complicated like a hiker passing through a campsite, collecting everybody's pending outgoing messages and submitting them once they have signal again. (The return path in the latter scenario would be much more complicated, as it would require either a lot of storage and broadcasting, or good heuristics about who's going to pass by where, in order to preemptively download messages.)

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#42

Post by lxgr »

gnarea wrote: post #37
flemhans wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess couriers could be implemented in many forms, with Bluetooth passers-by being one mode.

That's the goal indeed! What we have right now is version 1, but there's still a lot of room for improvement.

Bluetooth LE support would be great. That's the one P2P thing that allows Apple and other devices to communicate without an internet connection (or at least a Wi-Fi infrastructure network).

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#43

Post by packetlost »

jrexilius wrote: post #19
Animats wrote: post #5

This is more of an anti-censorship thing. Most useful in areas where somebody turns off the Internet for political reasons. A really reliable low-bandwidth emergency network would be more useful. Something that forwards short text messages via phone to phone WiFi until they reach some place with more connectivity would be helpful in emergencies.

The challenge with out-of-band RF networks in certain situations is that they can be triangualted by a hostile power. In places like Ukraine, that can trigger indiscrimante artillery or rocket fire onto civilians, for example. In China that can get people disapeared. Sometimes sneakernet is safer and more secure.

Sure, but that's not the threat model being discussed.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#44

Post by Pfhortune »

Any ETA on F-Droid, Accrescent, and/or APK releases from Github (for Obtainium)?

I know it's a non-trivial ask, and is planned, but seems important that software against censorship be hosted on a less censorship-friendly platform than the Play Store.

That said, thank you so much for doing this important work! I've often thought that I should start or contribute to a project like this, considering the direction of the world seems to be bending towards censorship and autocracy on the internet.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#46

Post by Animats »

packetlost wrote: post #43
jrexilius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge with out-of-band RF networks in certain situations is that they can be triangualted by a hostile power. In places like Ukraine, that can trigger indiscrimante artillery or rocket fire onto civilians, for example. In China that can get people disapeared. Sometimes sneakernet is safer and more secure.

Sure, but that's not the threat model being discussed.

Right. I'm thinking North Carolina floods in populated areas. Even if nearby cell towers are out, there are probably enough phones around to pass short text messages out to an area with network connectivity.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#48

Post by shubhamkrm »

lxgr wrote: post #34
gnarea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey folks, I couldn't post a reply to a message from shubhamkrm because someone flagged it. Honestly, I don't see how the comment would've violated the HN guidelines. They disagreed with me, but did so respectfully. I suspect someone may have perceived it as a violation to the following rule: > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity. But I'd argue that deleting their…

It's back; I just vouched for it to allow for responses (even though I completely disagree with the premise – but such is life with free speech.)

Thanks. I didn't mean to be provocative, just wanted to show the perspective from the other side.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#49

Post by shubhamkrm »

gnarea wrote: post #27
gnarea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hey folks, I couldn't post a reply to a message from shubhamkrm because someone flagged it. Honestly, I don't see how the comment would've violated the HN guidelines. They disagreed with me, but did so respectfully. I suspect someone may have perceived it as a violation to the following rule: > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity. But I'd argue that deleting their…

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my comment. I didn't mean to be provocative or offensive, just wanted to show the perspective from the other side.

> I agree with the sentiment, or the problem that the government is trying to tackle, but I disagree with their methods. They violate the fundamental human rights of many millions of people -- predominantly in Jammu & Kashmir and Manipur -- whenever they disconnect entire regions, not just from the Internet, but from the outside world. Even the postal service has been suspended.[2]

> I don't think it's all India's fault though. At its core, this is a content moderation issue. Those malicious actors that spread misinformation use large WhatsApp groups and the like, and the companies behind those products haven't done enough to address the problem, so local governments in India take the drastic decision to cut off the Internet.

I appreciate the sentiment. People on HN who live in free Western countries might not appreciate how an under-policed country with deep historical animosities looks like (India had 145 police personnel per 100k population, whereas the US had 428[1]). Unmitigated misinformation can do (and has done) a lot of harm in such societies. I agree with you that at its core, its a moderation issue, and a policing issue. I myself do not agree with the blanket bans, but I do not see any other possible mitigations as long as the communication service providers (such as Meta) do not bring proper moderation and fact-checks.

> Rather than waiting for something like that to happen, I'm more interested in mitigating it in the first place. That's why:

> - Letro[3], the first -- and so far only -- app to be powered by Awala, only supports 1:1 messaging. No groups yet, and when we do, we'll only support a relatively small number of people (TBD; not hundreds or thousands).

> - The future functionality to support "broadcasting" information to many users already has built-in mechanisms to handle hate speech and misinformation.[4]

> - As I work closely with anyone integrating Awala in their existing services, I intend to ensure that they have adequate plans to address hate speech and misinformation.

I do hope the mitigation works, and people are able to communicate with each other without allowing misinformation to spread. I had done some research on opportunistic networks as an undergrad student, with a similar goal of restoring communication in regions without adequate network coverage, so I do understand the need for such services. I wish you all the best, and would be following Awala with interest.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#50

Post by gnarea »

lxgr wrote: post #41

This is an amazing initiative! Unfortunately at least on iOS, it's always going to be severely limited by what Apple allows and does not allow apps to do in the background and with regards to P2P connecting to other (especially non-Apple) Wi-Fi devices. I've been dreaming about an optionally P2P messenger for a long time, i.e. something that just communicates over the internet while it's there, but lets messages pigg…

Thanks for the kind words!

Indeed, iOS is going to be a challenge for the reasons you mentioned. The fact that we won't be able to have a standalone app like Awala on Android[1], which serves local apps, means we won't be able to have a single app that people could use to sync data with couriers.

So, we're going to have to pick a poison. Either we don't offer the sneakernet on iOS, or we'll leave it up to the developer of every app to use an SDK to sync with couriers (meaning that the user would have to open each app to sync with couriers, one app at a time). "Fortunately", Android is pretty much the only mobile OS in the regions susceptible to Internet blackouts, so the former option is the most likely one.

I think I've seen an app like the one you describe, but I can't remember the name. There's also Bridgefy, which is more general purpose, but they provide an SDK that you may be able to integrate. I haven't checked Bridgefy in ages, but I hope they sorted out their security; it didn't use any cryptography for ages, and when they added it was all quite vague and opaque.

[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tech.relaycorp...

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