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Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

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Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#21

Post by shubhamkrm »

gnarea wrote: post #14
Vampiero wrote: post #2

Even after reading the technical explanation I don't understand how such a network would be useful or who the couriers are and how they actually deliver the cargo... Or why that's desirable over just caching the messages until the internet is available again. And what about reliability? How long does cargo take to get to its destination? How often does it actually make it there?

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hi there. I’m from India (the world’s capital of Internet blackouts). A major reason for Internet blackouts here is because in many areas, there’s a deep seated animosity between different communities due to historical and ideological differences. Internet blackouts are done close to any sensitive event, to prevent malicious actors from spreading misinformation/rumours and provoking riots. Have you considered the ethical implications of your service in such cases? Are you willing to take the moral responsibility for the damage to life and property that could be caused using your service?

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#22

Post by jrexilius »

gnarea wrote: post #16
senectus1 wrote: post #3

how would this work in jurastictions that are likely to jail you for transporting information across borders like say the great firewall of china etc. I would expect that just having the app installed would get you some quiet time in a small room.

> how would this work in jurastictions that are likely to jail you for transporting information across borders Great question! This is, by far, my biggest worry. Especially in North Korea if we ever launch there. This is actually going to be the topic of the next episode in the Inside Awala podcast: https://awala.alitu.com/ Long story short, there are measures that we've taken, and measures we will take. Measures tha…

Have you considered leveraging steganography in the sneakernet transport layer? Maybe something like https://steganography.live/info

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#23

Post by computersuck »

These practical problems make the project less feasible:

1. Making end applications implement your protocol (eg Facebook) makes it way harder to scale, simply because the enshittified big tech apps are unlikely to care. Now the apps will have to maintain a separate service and not get paid to do it.

2. Having deliberate physical couriers travel across borders are a massive risk - a hop to hop mesh network where connectivity can be easily established across all users (every user is a courier when they connect to unlimited mobile data or wifi) will make the network a lot more available

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#24

Post by haneefmubarak »

shubhamkrm wrote: post #21
gnarea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hi there. I’m from India (the world’s capital of Internet blackouts). A major reason for Internet blackouts here is because in many areas, there’s a deep seated animosity between different communities due to historical and ideological differences. Internet blackouts are done close to any sensitive event, to prevent malicious actors from spreading misinformation/rumours and provoking riots. Have you considered the eth…

(not the parent)

I think that it's manifestly unreasonable to preemptively knock out communications in a large civilian area during peacetime for essentially any reasons; in that same vein, it's absurd to lay blame at the feet of a communications enabler who provides a means for individuals to escape authoritarian suppression of communications.

The only parties responsible for the violence you are implying would be the individuals actualizing the violence, the individuals originating falsities, and the governments who fail to actively maintain peace. The collective failures of all three to restrain their actions amidst uncertain rumors should not condemn the vast majority of peaceable humans from communicating with each other.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#25

Post by iphoneisbetter »

shubhamkrm wrote: post #21
gnarea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hi there. I’m from India (the world’s capital of Internet blackouts). A major reason for Internet blackouts here is because in many areas, there’s a deep seated animosity between different communities due to historical and ideological differences. Internet blackouts are done close to any sensitive event, to prevent malicious actors from spreading misinformation/rumours and provoking riots. Have you considered the eth…

[flagged]

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#26

Post by aaomidi »

shubhamkrm wrote: post #21
gnarea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hi there. I’m from India (the world’s capital of Internet blackouts). A major reason for Internet blackouts here is because in many areas, there’s a deep seated animosity between different communities due to historical and ideological differences. Internet blackouts are done close to any sensitive event, to prevent malicious actors from spreading misinformation/rumours and provoking riots. Have you considered the eth…

This is not an okay take at all.

Cutting the internet is an authoritarian move, that’s used as threat on communities (usually minorities).

There is no moral irresponsibility when it comes to giving the general public access to data. The moral irresponsibility here is India bullying a minority population through their nationalist right wing government.

Also my god I can’t believe the pendulum has swung so far the ass of nationalism that it’s not a moral quandary to restore access to communications to marginalized communities.

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#27

Post by gnarea »

gnarea wrote: post #14
Vampiero wrote: post #2

Even after reading the technical explanation I don't understand how such a network would be useful or who the couriers are and how they actually deliver the cargo... Or why that's desirable over just caching the messages until the internet is available again. And what about reliability? How long does cargo take to get to its destination? How often does it actually make it there?

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

Hey folks,

I couldn't post a reply to a message from shubhamkrm because someone flagged it. Honestly, I don't see how the comment would've violated the HN guidelines. They disagreed with me, but did so respectfully. I suspect someone may have perceived it as a violation to the following rule:

> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity.

But I'd argue that deleting their message actually tramples curiosity. It wasn't a political or ideological message. The focus was ethics.

In the hope that this was a mistake, I'll quote most of their message below next to my replies.

---

> A major reason for Internet blackouts here is because in many areas, there’s a deep seated animosity between different communities due to historical and ideological differences. Internet blackouts are done close to any sensitive event, to prevent malicious actors from spreading misinformation/rumours and provoking riots

First of all, I like your summary of the situation in India because I think it's objective and brings its nuance to the front.

> Have you considered the ethical implications of your service in such cases?

I have.

India is the reason why I describe Awala's goal as "providing all human beings with uncensored and timely communication anywhere in the universe – without impairing the fundamental rights of other human beings".[1] That last sentence is mainly because of India.

I agree with the sentiment, or the problem that the government is trying to tackle, but I disagree with their methods. They violate the fundamental human rights of many millions of people -- predominantly in Jammu & Kashmir and Manipur -- whenever they disconnect entire regions, not just from the Internet, but from the outside world. Even the postal service has been suspended.[2]

I don't think it's all India's fault though. At its core, this is a content moderation issue. Those malicious actors that spread misinformation use large WhatsApp groups and the like, and the companies behind those products haven't done enough to address the problem, so local governments in India take the drastic decision to cut off the Internet.

> Are you willing to take the moral responsibility for the damage to life and property that could be caused using your service?

Rather than waiting for something like that to happen, I'm more interested in mitigating it in the first place. That's why:

- Letro[3], the first -- and so far only -- app to be powered by Awala, only supports 1:1 messaging. No groups yet, and when we do, we'll only support a relatively small number of people (TBD; not hundreds or thousands).

- The future functionality to support "broadcasting" information to many users already has built-in mechanisms to handle hate speech and misinformation.[4]

- As I work closely with anyone integrating Awala in their existing services, I intend to ensure that they have adequate plans to address hate speech and misinformation.

---

[1] https://awala.network/about

[2] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/25/crackdown-on-lawyer...

[3] https://letro.app/en/

[4] https://github.com/AwalaApp/specs/issues/43

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#28

Post by flemhans »

gnarea wrote: post #14
Vampiero wrote: post #2

Even after reading the technical explanation I don't understand how such a network would be useful or who the couriers are and how they actually deliver the cargo... Or why that's desirable over just caching the messages until the internet is available again. And what about reliability? How long does cargo take to get to its destination? How often does it actually make it there?

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

How easy is it to triangulate a starlink terminal?

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#29

Post by flemhans »

gnarea wrote: post #14
Vampiero wrote: post #2

Even after reading the technical explanation I don't understand how such a network would be useful or who the couriers are and how they actually deliver the cargo... Or why that's desirable over just caching the messages until the internet is available again. And what about reliability? How long does cargo take to get to its destination? How often does it actually make it there?

Hiya! Author of Awala here. We're revamping the website right now so it's great to get this kind of feedback! I'll answer your questions in the meantime. You raise good questions. I originally tried to keep it simple and wrote the documentation with my (prospective) partners in mind. They already work in this space, so they know the problem very well, and we'd usually have a few high-level conversations before gettin…

I bet awala could also be useful for interplanetary communication

Re: Awala: The computer network on which humankind can rely

#30

Post by gnarea »

computersuck wrote: post #23

These practical problems make the project less feasible: 1. Making end applications implement your protocol (eg Facebook) makes it way harder to scale, simply because the enshittified big tech apps are unlikely to care. Now the apps will have to maintain a separate service and not get paid to do it. 2. Having deliberate physical couriers travel across borders are a massive risk - a hop to hop mesh network where conne…

> These practical problems make the project less feasible:

I agree! But...

> 1. Making end applications implement your protocol (eg Facebook) makes it way harder to scale, simply because the enshittified big tech apps are unlikely to care. Now the apps will have to maintain a separate service and not get paid to do it.

My bet is that, once we gain sufficient ground, Facebook and other mainstream social networks will be interested in building an alternative clients powered by Awala, just like Twitter built "Twitter Lite" back in the day. It's likely to be a PR stunt.

OTOH, third parties could build such applications, as long as the social networks give them access to their APIs (without extortionate fees!).

Until we gain sufficient ground, we'll carry on with in-house Awala-compatible apps like Letro.[1]

> 2. Having deliberate physical couriers travel across borders are a massive risk

Agreed. But there are options to avoid travelling across borders per my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695801

> a hop to hop mesh network where connectivity can be easily established across all users (every user is a courier when they connect to unlimited mobile data or wifi) will make the network a lot more available

I don't think that's a practical solution. Bluetooth-based meshnets are rather cumbersome to use, and WiFi-based ones are not even feasible (on Android, for example, you'd have to root your phone). Also, the regions we're targeting have low-spec devices, where most won't have enough capacity to replicate so much data from their family/neighbours.

[1] https://letro.app/en/

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