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Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

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Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#41
post #8
post #2

Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. If the company wants the product to be available, then it should respect local laws the same way it did in Turkey and India.

>Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. What about the rights of people who want to use twitter? Would you use the same characterization for Chinese censorship (ie. "The New York Times is not an fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to [The New York Times Company]")?

This question isn’t relevant to this situation because Musk’s Twitter has already proven to not have any moral standing on this question.

Musk is willing to censor for Turkey but not for Brazil. It’s a massive double standard. His company has major shareholders who are part of the Saudi monarchy. Twitter under Musk isn’t a company that can make any honest claim to care about democratic free speech.

He’s already suspended left-wing and Musk-critical journalists and activists without a specific TOS violation or explanation while not doing the same for anyone that aligns with his ideology.

He doesn’t have kind of the moral high ground that other companies do on these matters, e.g., the kind that Google had when they exited China.

I also think that using china’s style of censorship as an analogy to other styles of censorship is also potentially a flawed exercise. I would argue that things like Germany’s censorship of Nazi ideology is a positive for human rights and democracy. Even the USA’s prohibition of the government’s speech on the topic of religion and political speech is technically a form of censorship - self-censorship, essentially.

I could imagine a hypothetical democratic government where speech is generally free but anti-democratic ideology is not tolerated, since that speech oversteps the boundaries of free speech and crosses into a territory of speech that harms others.

In other words, a society that overcomes the paradox of tolerance.

For example, Trump has spoken of elimination of term limits, becoming a dictator for a day, and has generally advocated for political violence. Because of his rhetoric there are a large percentage of people in the USA who would end democracy entirely if it meant that their dear leader Trump was president for life rather than a member of the opposition party. In the USA the first amendment protects him, but I would argue that it should not - that a democracy that intends to survive the constant onslaught of opportunistic authoritarians should criminalize anti-democratic activity and speech.

(I am not specifically commenting on Brazil’s orders to censor people on the Twitter platform because I am not equipped with that context. I don’t know specifically who those people are, what those people said, said and whether that court order was sensible. I merely speak in philosophical hypotheticals here - and at the end of the day whether my hypotheticals are “right” or “wrong” is irrelevant in the context of Elon’s asymmetrical application of “free speech”)

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#42
post #2

Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. If the company wants the product to be available, then it should respect local laws the same way it did in Turkey and India.

Being able to read stuff written by other people is pretty close to a basic human right, though. At least in the liberal Western tradition.

There are other places than Twitter to read stuff written by other people. Even in the conservative exotic orient.

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#43
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't seem to stop Twitter in India and Turkey.

The issue in Brazil, based on what I read, was that Twitter’s lawyers in Brazil and Elon believed that the requests being made violate Brazil’s constitution. In Turkey and India, there was no such concern.

That is not an argument in a nation of law. If twitter thinks this is unconstitutional in Brazil, then they can by all means sue! Courts are the institutions that rule whether that is true or not, not some billionaire with a bad day.

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#44
post #2

Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. If the company wants the product to be available, then it should respect local laws the same way it did in Turkey and India.

Being able to read stuff written by other people is pretty close to a basic human right, though. At least in the liberal Western tradition.

I often can't read Twitter because I do not have account. Is my human right violated?

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#45
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad they didn't comply. I don't want social media platforms banning people just because some national government told them to.

I also don’t want companies to have to have offices in every country where they operate. X is big enough but it’s silly of Brazil to require a literal physical presence. They can serve whatever they need electronically to wherever X is these days.

It may seem strange, at least to me, but the company Lumen Orbit (YCS24) [1] aims to offer data centers in space. If they, or another similar company, succeed in the future, it could change jurisdictional rules.

[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/lumen-orbit

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#46
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. What about the rights of people who want to use twitter? Would you use the same characterization for Chinese censorship (ie. "The New York Times is not an fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to [The New York Times Company]")?

You don't have the right to patronize a restaurant that gets shut down for health code violations after it's shut down. There's no difference in principle here. Banning Twitter itself for failing to comply with the law isn't a free speech issue. Now, part of the order makes it illegal to use VPN to access Twitter, which is an actual free speech issue, if you'd care to argue on those grounds.

Isn’t the use of a VPN analogous to using a back door (alley entrance) to visit the condemned restaurant? What difference would there be in your analogy?

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#47

I'm not sure I agree with Brazil wanting to compel platforms to ban accounts and I don't agree with fining people who try to access the service and if Elon is to be believed, I really don't agree with threatening Twitter's legal rep with prison. Elon is also a hypocrite having done the exact thing Brazil is asking for with India and Turkey in the past and he clearly has no problem inventing reasons to ban people who…

Is there a reason to give Elon the benefit of the doubt for anything at this point?

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#48
post #2

Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. If the company wants the product to be available, then it should respect local laws the same way it did in Turkey and India.

Being able to read stuff written by other people is pretty close to a basic human right, though. At least in the liberal Western tradition.

Between Elon deciding who to block (and he blocks quiet often) and democratically elected governments deciding, I prefer the one that's got at least some checks and balances.

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#49
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company. What about the rights of people who want to use twitter? Would you use the same characterization for Chinese censorship (ie. "The New York Times is not an fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to [The New York Times Company]")?

You don't have the right to patronize a restaurant that gets shut down for health code violations after it's shut down. There's no difference in principle here. Banning Twitter itself for failing to comply with the law isn't a free speech issue. Now, part of the order makes it illegal to use VPN to access Twitter, which is an actual free speech issue, if you'd care to argue on those grounds.

>There's no difference in principle here. Banning Twitter itself for failing to comply with the law isn't a free speech issue.

All the websites China bans are also ostensibly for "failing to comply with the law". Would you say those bans are also "not a free speech issue"?

Re: Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky

#50
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to read stuff written by other people is pretty close to a basic human right, though. At least in the liberal Western tradition.

That’s why regulation should apply to services like that, the same way a private company should not be able to block a highway that is critical to the functioning of a country. Twitter since elon’s criminal “leadership” has become a bot-infested cesspool of racist bullshit, where he unilaterally censors whatever he dislikes in his sissy fits. In this form, this is a manipulation device, and good riddance.

There is a lot more than racist bullshit that is going on on Twitter/X, for example, a lot of interesting voices from Ukraine.

If I were a Brasilian, I would certainly deeply resent the idea that my government treats me like a digital serf who is only allowed to move within a certain "area".

I don't believe in merits of censorship, regardless of all the putative benefits it always claims. And yeah, I am aware that Musk isn't a good personal example either. But it is worse if an entity with a monopoly on violence (= government) engages in that.

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