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An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

noconformity.co

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Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#41

Post by maxprogram »

planetguy wrote: post #13

The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses…

And at least they are in good company.

At a Berkshire Hathaway board meeting: http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Bill-Gates-...

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#42

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #4

I've worked at companies that used strip clubs as part of their sales process. I won't again if I can help it. I'd avoid working at a company that posted a photo like this, too.

The photographic evidence is far worse than the act, at least from a practical perspective. If a customer really wants to go to a strip club, it might be worth it to go, but you don't want to 1) establish a reputation for doing business in strip clubs or 2) have random people later associate your company with strip clubs.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#43

Post by tptacek »

mindcrime wrote: post #38
tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said, Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. The simple fact is professional women don't feel this way. Due to power dynamics, due to gender differences, due to concern over personal safety, due to a general feeling of alienation because of being minority, and due to prob…

professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace. This strikes me as a continuum, not a binary thing. I'm not saying let's have Eyes Wide Shut style orgies in the office, mind you. I'm just expressing a general, personal feeling that people should loosen up a bit. In regards to the workplace thing, I don't endorse doing things that make people uncomfortable, but I also don't be…

Don't hit on women at the office.

Don't make comments about the attractiveness of women at the office.

If you're not socially aware enough to distinguish between compliments that are and aren't sexually charged (ie, you are like most guys), don't compliment women's appearance at all at the office.

Don't take the office to Hooter's.

Don't take the office to strip clubs.

Don't put sexualized women or men in your presentations.

Don't make sexualized jokes in your presentations, and avoid sexualize humor at the office to the extent possible.

Don't raise concerns or ask questions of professional women about child care or marriage unless you are anticipating caring for your own children or forming your own marriage and need advice.

Nerds are creatively idiotic about this topic, so I'm sure that not only have I missed obvious things, but this list will probably expand by at least 10 more items by the end of the year, but at least by being specific I don't have to debate on the slippery slope with you about it.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#44

Post by MSexton »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #33
hythloday wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing…

Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

GP is talking about "less attractive industry for women", meaning an industry women would be less attracted to, as in not want to work for/be part of.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#45

Post by mindcrime »

planetguy wrote: post #28
mindcrime wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. The issue is being considerate to people in general. Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Do you mean on a case-by-case basis though? IOW, if you had a group where everyone was happy going to Hooters, would you do it, or are you saying that one should always stick to the "safe" choice? If the latter, I wouldn't really a…

Well personally, I wouldn't want to go to Hooters with my workmates anyway... it seems like a form of unwanted intimacy. I prefer to think of my workmates as machines that consume dollars and produce work; seeing them leering at women would force me to think of them as people , and that's just getting dangerously close to blending personal and professional relationships. (I'm exaggerating above, of course, but the th…

Well personally, I wouldn't want to go to Hooters with my workmates anyway... it seems like a form of unwanted intimacy. I prefer to think of my workmates as machines that consume dollars and produce work; seeing them leering at women would force me to think of them as people, and that's just getting dangerously close to blending personal and professional relationships.

That's a fair and understandable position. I'm different in that I prefer to have fairly intimate (not necessarily sexual though) relations with my co-workers. The companies I've enjoyed working at the most, were the ones where we did things like going out to bars together after work, etc. For me, I like to blur those lines... life is life, I'm not a big fan of boundaries, borders, rules, limits, regulations, etc.

But, then again, I'm a fairly libertine leaning libertarian, so I can accept that not everyone will share my views...

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#46

Post by m0nastic »

By the way, an easier way to potentially avoid situations like this (for those wondering what is/isn't appropriate in a work environment but are having trouble conceptualizing what's "appropriate" in a work context):

Just don't go to shitty lunch places (like Hooters).

I can't think of any place that's objectionable in this context that's actually a decent place to go.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#47

Post by angelbob »

wildmXranat wrote: post #35

There's only one right message in this article: linking your company brand to Hooters might be detrimental to your bottom line Now that that's out of the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong about doing this. In fact, her complaint exhibits the lack of respect for freedom of choice and expression one can take advantage of, without paying a price in the public court of opinion. It boils down to this: she was offende…

No, it really doesn't boil down to that. Silicon Valley Startup culture does currently create a hostile attitude for a lot of female founders and potential female employees.

NYC is handing us our ass on female founders and employees, partly because they come closer to getting this right.

Perhaps we should consider learning something here?

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#48

Post by tptacek »

rdl wrote: post #42
tptacek wrote: post #4

I've worked at companies that used strip clubs as part of their sales process. I won't again if I can help it. I'd avoid working at a company that posted a photo like this, too.

The photographic evidence is far worse than the act, at least from a practical perspective. If a customer really wants to go to a strip club, it might be worth it to go, but you don't want to 1) establish a reputation for doing business in strip clubs or 2) have random people later associate your company with strip clubs.

I disagree about the cost/benefit of selling using strip clubs. When you concede to taking customers to strip clubs, you in effect declare your sales team to be a male-only operation. Fuck that. Not worth it.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#49

Post by angelbob »

tptacek wrote: post #34
discolemonade wrote: post #31

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" Why is gender inequality a problem that needs to be avoided? The economy needs tech startups. What difference does it make that the vast majority are started by men? It would be equally good if most tech startups were started by women, but they aren't. Who cares? The "gender inequality is bad" meme seems to be an unquestioned default that most people hold in t…

These threads sure do bring out the best in HN, don't they?

Alas.

They're not as bad as they were at first. That's something.

I'm still embarrassed to be a member of HN when these threads roll around.

Thank you, by the way - you generally do an excellent job of being a voice of reason here.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#50

Post by deedubaya »

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that a work environment shouldn't be difficult for one person, and easy for another based on a discriminating factor, but let's be realistic people!

There are going to be situations in life where you'll be uncomfortable. It might be because of your values, gender, faith, or race. It will happen. It will happen to the person standing next to you at some point.

How about we all grow up and move past these points, and build cool stuff? I don't care if it is done in a Hooters or a Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

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