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An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

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Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#31

Post by discolemonade »

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided"

Why is gender inequality a problem that needs to be avoided? The economy needs tech startups. What difference does it make that the vast majority are started by men? It would be equally good if most tech startups were started by women, but they aren't. Who cares? The "gender inequality is bad" meme seems to be an unquestioned default that most people hold in their heads. The first thing people will always assume is that any uneven statistical distribution of people in a profession will be due to discrimination. But that's usually not the case. Usually, it comes down to a far simpler explanation. There are significant average motivational differences between men and women when it comes to math and the hard sciences that will always ensure a gender imbalance in engineering-related fields. Statistically, it has little to do with ability (except at very elite levels). Far fewer women than men enjoy thinking about and discussing technology. It's a simple fact of the world that's easily observed in the ever day conversations that men and women choose to have. And it will forever ensure a statistical gender imbalance in tech. Most women aren't interested in technology and women (and men) who are in technology, who keep pushing for this fictional perfect male/female balance would do well to show a bit of respect to the majority of the female population that chooses to be interested in other things that females are typically more oriented towards.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#32

Post by tptacek »

rdl wrote: post #26
planetguy wrote: post #13

The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses…

I think she's arguing that even if 100% of the current employee participants are happy going to a hooters restaurant, posting a photo of it will deter future female hires. In reality, it won't deter only female hires. I have nothing against going to places like this (or strip clubs: subsidized steak, at least in Oregon) socially, but a fair number of people wouldn't want to go socially, and I absolutely wouldn't want…

DING DING DING THIS.

I have no problem with guys going to strip clubs or guys going to Hooters or guys hitting on girls at bars. I'm friends with plenty of people who do these things and still think they're great people.

But none of them take it to work, or go out of their way to take work to there.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#33

Post by prodigal_erik »

hythloday wrote: post #9
fein wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem wit…

It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing…

Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#34

Post by tptacek »

discolemonade wrote: post #31

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" Why is gender inequality a problem that needs to be avoided? The economy needs tech startups. What difference does it make that the vast majority are started by men? It would be equally good if most tech startups were started by women, but they aren't. Who cares? The "gender inequality is bad" meme seems to be an unquestioned default that most people hold in t…

These threads sure do bring out the best in HN, don't they?

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#35

Post by wildmXranat »

There's only one right message in this article: linking your company brand to Hooters might be detrimental to your bottom line Now that that's out of the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong about doing this. In fact, her complaint exhibits the lack of respect for freedom of choice and expression one can take advantage of, without paying a price in the public court of opinion.

It boils down to this: she was offended, she should avoid the company. Instead she's publicly trying to gang up on them, where it actually might cause them to lose some coin. Live and let live.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#36

Post by graue »

fein wrote: post #7
hythloday wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" but you find that an all-male publicizing going to a "breasturant" for a team outing is a "non-issue"? Do you genuinely not see any contradiction in those viewpoints?

If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem wit…

We need to get past this meme of "if the situations were reversed, I'd be OK with it."

Think about it for a second. How many "all female crews" have you actually heard of in Silicon Valley (or tech startups in general)? Any? I'm honestly curious if you can come up with one.

Now let's suppose we've found an example of an all-female startup. They need funding, so they have to apply to VCs. What gender are an overwhelming majority of those VCs? Hint: it starts with an M.

Then let's say they want advice and connections from other entrepreneurs. I just clicked around on CrunchBase for 10 minutes looking at the names of people who run random startups, including Airbnb, Path, Tumblr, Yammer, Airtime and others. I didn't see a single name that sounded female. Maybe I missed one or two.

The problem with your hypothetical all-women crew going to "man hooters" is that not only is it unlikely to happen, it ignores the power imbalance in tech. These guys that went to a Hooters-like place and posted the photos are sending a clear signal that women are not welcome in their company. That's a problem, especially in an area where women are so underrepresented already. Sexism doesn't have to be deliberate or explicit to be real.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#37

Post by m0nastic »

nsxwolf wrote: post #22
jimboyoungblood wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from Hooters, what are other examples of "these places" that should be avoided? Our startup's engineering staff is all male- any advice that will keep us out of such embarrassing situations is appreciated.

No strip clubs and porn shops obviously, but that's apparently not far enough. No place that hires attractive women or even hints at human sexuality as being a positive thing, apparently.

Naturally, the point of trying to promote a professional, inclusive workplace is really a scheme to reinforce sexual shame on a mass scale.

How about places that just don't objectify a group of people?

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#38

Post by mindcrime »

tptacek wrote: post #25
mindcrime wrote: post #12

Weirdly, I both care tremendously about gender equality, and also think this is much ado about nothing. I guess the issue is my libertine nature, and refusal to assume that anything with sexual overtones is innately hostile, offensive, insulting, etc. One of the co-founders at Fogbeam Labs is a woman, so this is not empty rhetoric on my part. I respect women tremendously, and would not have invited this woman to join…

You said, Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. The simple fact is professional women don't feel this way. Due to power dynamics, due to gender differences, due to concern over personal safety, due to a general feeling of alienation because of being minority, and due to prob…

professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace.

This strikes me as a continuum, not a binary thing. I'm not saying let's have Eyes Wide Shut style orgies in the office, mind you. I'm just expressing a general, personal feeling that people should loosen up a bit. In regards to the workplace thing, I don't endorse doing things that make people uncomfortable, but I also don't believe in over-generalizing and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

See the discussion above, about dealing with "lunch at Hooters" on a case-by-case basis, vs. as general policy. My point is that I'd be fine with a work lunch at Hooters if all the members of the party were OK with going there. If we had a group member (male OR female) who didn't want to go, I certainly wouldn't try and force them to go.

Some of them are bad, some of them are totally innocuous, and that ambiguity is why we came up with the word "INAPPROPRIATE".

Overly broad generalizations to deal with ambiguity don't strike me as a proper trade-off. But that's just me.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#39

Post by gyardley »

nsxwolf wrote: post #21

This seems prudish. This is a restaurant, not a strip club. There is no nudity. They have national TV ads. If you go in, you'll find families with children. You can find that questionable if you want to, but clearly many people don't mind bringing their children there. Most restaurants hire a lot of female servers. Most have very nice looking women. This is not a coincidence. Most have them wear clothes that in some…

Even 'good liberal folk' talk about lawsuits in these situations, no matter what their views on sexuality, because lawsuits do result from this sort of thing and they prefer to avoid getting sued.

Even 'good liberal folk' don't hold work events at establishments that might bother us unenlightened troglodyte prudes, because we still make up a decent chunk of the talent pool, and finding good employees is hard enough without alienating large swaths of them through easily avoidable things.

'Good liberal folk' in quotes, of course, because ogling someone who's so empowered she has to wear a skimpy uniform to keep her crappy minimum wage job doesn't strike me as particularly good or liberal.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#40

Post by rpwilcox »

I would think that investors (and/or shareholders) would be very interested in their investments not having their runway dissolved by some discrimination lawsuit.

So are investors just not watching? I would think that one call or email from one of your VCs where they condone That Sort Of Thing would be enough to scramble the PR machine and never do something like that again.

But it seems that every month (at least) we see some startup doing something dumb like this. Are VCs just not watching what their investments are doing?

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